Pluto and Saturn hard aspects in natal

[Violets]

I’ve been pondering this aspect for a while now, as both my son and I have it (and we have Saturn/Pluto conjunct). I’m leaning towards thinking that this aspect goes back into past life experiences that the natives need to get past, but of course I can’t be certain of that. I have more to say on it (or think out loud), but I’ll be back with that.

Anyway, this is by far the most accurate description I’ve ever read of this aspect.

theastrologyplacemembership.com/2012/12/saturn-pluto-aspects/

[vg]

My mother had it - conjunct her mars and square venus as well. My father has it. I have it conj my asc, my son doesnt have it but he has pluto conjunct asc and saturn is his chart ruler in the 12th. The child i'm expecting will have it as well. Does seem to be a family theme (Strong pluto at least)

I read the description and for me alot of it is accurate. Will come back with more info....

pls dnt quote

[FruityLlama]

My father has the opposition. The description seems a bit dramatic for him, but I can only speak from my perspective of course. He is estranged from his parents and brother, he is a little guarded about it and his past generally, but I think it's more that he doesn't like talking about himself rather than him hoarding any dark secrets or anything. He is a quiet person who works hard and commands respect but he really isn't an authoritative man at all. His NN is in Taurus so he was destined to seek a quiet life really.

He very very occasionally has sudden outbursts of anger when really pushed and it can be shocking, as the article suggests. He has a Cancer moon and a few planets in Scorpio too so you can imagine he is a quiet, gentle and goofy (Sag Sun/Venus) person most of the time.

His orderly-ness and tidiness can be attributed to his Virgo mars as much as it can be this aspect- Pluto is in Virgo as well, opposing Saturn. Unfortunately I don't have his TOB so it could be that these planets aren't highlighted in his chart very much, though I actually doubt that given his little Virgo stellium (Uranus conjuncts them too).

My colleague has the opposition too (born same year as Dad actually) and another colleague has the square in Cancer-Libra. The square colleague has this aspect spilling over the 2H and 5H, with Saturn ruling her 8H. Scorpio is intercepted in the 6H. I need to think about this a lot, but she is someone who dislikes very rigid boundaries (Gem ASC, Aqua Sun, 12H Tau moon), is very sensitive deep down and whilst she is bubbly and funny, is actually a lone wolf. She enjoys her solitude and really dislikes socialising outside of work but I always thought that was due to her 12H moon. I can see how the square to her 5H pluto, with other Scorpio/Cancer undercurrents there might have some influence. Unless I'm totally wrong here. 

Just going by that article, it seems to fit the above people loosely and seems to reinforce other, more prominent features of their chart which could account for those behaviours. 

[Violets]

My dad also has this aspect, although my mom is a bit out of orb with it.

I’m sure aspects manifest differently, and even more so throughout different houses.

My dad has never been violent or creepy towards me, but he survived so much abuse throughout his own childhood. He has the conjunction, but strangely his siblings don’t appear to have it (too wide of an orb I guess). I think if the person isn’t violent physically or emotionally, they’re acutely aware of human nature and the capacity to be.

[lumina]

Some astrologers deem this one the "hardest" aspect of all.
I am a bit more cautious with such judgements cause it is just a step away from seeing it as a "doom aspect", which I hope it isn`t. lol It does have its challenges of course, and more than a fair share, and I guess we all have started to really experience this one in recent times. Well David Cochrane called it (albeit in a composite of a couple) the "bare bones-aspect. No dessert for you, just the essential necesseties", which usually is not much fun to have obviously, too much restrictions, obligations, heaviness etc.

However I think if it goes well, maybe more so in a nativity than really a relationship, then it also gives you a lot of stamina, inner strength, sense of direction and purpose. Of course it can get out of hand either in direction of becoming authoritarian or turning it inwards and well then there might be a risk of depression or heavy moods or just basically experiencing this heaviness in life experiences and in people around.

But of course every aspect must be seen in context (honestly though I wouldn´t like to have this one in a composite as a stand alone, or even in a synastry, it can get very cold and lonely there; it might be different if it is connected harmoniously with Moon or Venus though).

But also with all that in mind, it is a semi generational planet, Pluto is an outer planet, saturn is not the quickest one either, so chances are that many people in a generation or born within months of each other, will have that. I would always check how it is interconnected to the rest of the chart. and if it is angular or not.

I have a wide square of Saturn to Pluto (it is 8 degrees though, and I do not really count 8 degree aspects anyway. lol), and I don`t think I really experience it very acutely. Well of course I did so for the past years, as I have been through Tr Pluto opposing pr and natal Saturn, and Tr Saturn squaring my natal Pluto (part of my Solar return of last year), and just when this was fading out, there was the transiting Saturn-Pluto-conjunction coming in, with Saturn being opposing my natal Saturn, at least for a time, I think I am out of that bunch now though. Tr Saturn is not going back to pester my natal Saturn (16°57 Cancer) hopefully. Tr Pluto isn`t doing so either. But this has been my reality from I think 2016? on.

And of course Tr Saturnw as also conjunct my Sun, Mercury and Venus during that time, and well it completely restructured my life in a way (well I have become an aunt twice, and that alone restructured everything), but more importantly my way of dealing with things, my attitude. i think for me it was mostly operating on a mental level maybe, though it did have some other effects, too.

I have experienced it as a pretty constructive thing though in the end. At least I think so. lol But no matter how we interprete it, one thing is clear, my life before 2016 and after does not feel like it is even the same one anymore. It`s been subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) rearranged, without it being really obvious externally I think.

2016 also saw one of the toughest periods in spring, as my best friend`s mother died surprisingly, and it was a huge shock. and then in summer my nephew was being born and it was the happiest occasion imaginable, and at the same time my mom had to get treated in hospital (as she had feared having swallowed a fishbone). I wasn`t there at that time, as coincidentally I was away on a trip and was seeing P on stage, when my nephew was born, like the exact day (P has a habit to be around when I am becoming an aunt. LOL) and my aunt came the day later to pick me up and also to watch the musical, and then it was a short night as we were making the trip back very early, and first visited my mom in hospital and then into the car again to visit my sister in law, my brother and their baby. Luckily my mom was okay, and so was my sister in law and kid.

But well, for me personally I`d say, the common thread for me in this aspect is dealing with life as it is, reality, real stuff, tangible one, not funny, not lighthearted, but not always disastrous either. I mean there was always both somehow, the worries, the concerns, the harsh type of reality, but also the one where you realize that you can (and owe it to yourself to) be more, do more, than you ever thought possible, but you have to really commit to whatever you do, whereever you go. Something like that. Okay, Pisces-Jupiter in 3rd house is babbling again. lol

[Violets]

^ I like that assessment. I’ve noticed that although it’s considered semi-generational, many of my friends are, as you noted, out of orb with this aspect. I’ll have to come back to the thread again for more, lol. I haven’t found many people I know with it, which surprised me.

[midnight]

Nice discussion! I will add to it later.

Just wanted to say that I have the conjunction in Libra(2). My husband has a 10 degrees conjunction, so I can't count it. We have it in our Composite (with Venus).

😅

[12YearsABlob]

May 25, 2020 17:43:29 GMT lumina said:

But also with all that in mind, it is a semi generational planet, Pluto is an outer planet, saturn is not the quickest one either, so chances are that many people in a generation or born within months of each other, will have that. I would always check how it is interconnected to the rest of the chart. and if it is angular or not.

Yeah, same here. I believe it can show "generational hardship" of sorts (like we talked about on the other thread). But if it connects to personal planets, then it's more clearly manifested in their own lives.

[Violets]

I don’t know, my best friend has it with a wide (8 degree) orb, and we’re only a few months apart. Saturn only hangs around for a couple of years, so I don’t consider that generational (I’m sorry if I seem argumentative, but I have a pet peeve about this, lol). Most of my friends of my generation don’t have this natal aspect. 🤷🏻‍♀️😬

[Violets]

Looking at the ephemeral for the year I was born, I can see that for a good portion of it Pluto went retrograde while Saturn was going direct—so just four months after I was born, it’s entirely out of orb (I have the square with a 4 degree orb).

[lumina]

Well it is a semi generational aspect. It doesn`t mean everyone is going to have it, though. But certain years have a very high percentage of Saturn-Pluto-aspects, because of both being rather slow in motion, though Saturn is of course not as slow as Pluto. So it is less frequent than let`s say Neptune-Pluto, but if it happens, it is in play for several months.

I am using the term "generational" loosely here though, obviously this is not an aspect that would be in play ongoing for 30 years, however it is much more persistent than a personal aspect. Like in 1974 it was approximately for half of the year in play.

[12YearsABlob]

May 25, 2020 22:16:03 GMT Violets said:

I don’t know, my best friend has it with a wide (8 degree) orb, and we’re only a few months apart. Saturn only hangs around for a couple of years, so I don’t consider that generational (I’m sorry if I seem argumentative, but I have a pet peeve about this, lol). Most of my friends of my generation don’t have this natal aspect. 🤷🏻‍♀️😬

Sure, I meant semi-generational, I guess. But yeah, I do think aspects that are solely between outer planets reflect society at the time, to some degree. I don't consider them fully personal unless they aspect a natal planet/angle. That is not only because of their orbital periods, but also the archetypes of the planets involved. Also, being societal doesn't take away from the natal significance either because we are, to some extent, a product of our environment. As such, the "generational" or semi-generational aspects are also felt, but on a different level. That's the best explanation I can string together right now.

Of course, I could be wrong, and have no problem changing my view if I find something to the contrary.

[Violets]

Okay, yes. I do agree with you guys, 12YearsABlob and lumina. It’s not “generational”, but it doesn’t happen every year the way aspects between personal planets can/do. Before I looked back in here I did check the ephemeris for 1974, and the aspect was typical of Saturn’s movement, to me. He’s not as fast as Venus or Mercury, but not as slow as the others. He hangs out for a few months with some crap transit, and then he putters off to something else, comes back for another few months, etc—but that only lasts for a couple of years, off and on.

I realize I’m saying what everyone already knows, I’m just agreeing, lol.

That said, I do get annoyed when I read books or articles that call it a generational transit. It honestly is quite a difficult one to work out, and I know so many people who get skipped during those transits.

Okay I’m done complaining about that. 😬

[12YearsABlob]

May 26, 2020 0:35:35 GMT Violets said:

That said, I do get annoyed when I read books or articles that call it a generational transit. It honestly is quite a difficult one to work out, and I know so many people who get skipped during those transits.

Oh, right, yes -- and I do see that that term might be used to trivialize an aspect or transit in literature. I don't agree with that either. Even though a transit/aspect is generational/semi-generational, it's effect on people cannot be minimized or neglected. Maybe it's just the way things are phrased that makes it seem so? But yeah, I'm interested in exploring the personal meaning of these (and having you guys' anecdotes helps with that).

[lumina]

Oh, I didn`t mean to trivialize this aspect by calling it "semi-generational". Just because it affects a greater number of people doesn`t mean it is in any kind meaningless. Quite the opposite actually, this is a very heavy weight aspect, and probably becoming even more accentuated when angular or also affecting Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars or the ruler of an angle.
But even if not, it would be somewhere in the chart and there it will make itself felt, and chances are that people born within months of each other, or who have that natally, will have a certain Saturn-Pluto-theme between them as well, (synastry and/ or composite), and that is definitely making itself felt.

and now let`s imagine such a Saturn-Pluto-person meets me, with a quarter-generational (just kidding. lol) Jupiter-Neptune-pattern (very pronounced in my chart, square within one degree, with Neptune conjunct NN and ASC, and both being in mutual reception, and Jupiter dispositing all my Sag-planets). I guess two worlds collide. lol

(well I do have those two worlds inside myself as well of course, not because Saturn is squaring Pluto by 8 degrees, but Saturn in 8th, Pluto in 10th house, Venus, disposited by Saturn, squaring Pluto, which is angular on the Libra MC, disposited by Venus, so if I were ever to make a Venus-profile, we certainly would find the presence of Saturn and Pluto in it. )

Basically it is easy, there is a dichotomy in my chart between the dispositor-chains connected to the feminine planets Venus and Moon, and then the rest, Sun, Mercury, Mars, ASC.
One dispositor chain governed by Saturn, the other by Jupiter (luckily my Jupiter and Saturn talk to each other, as they are trine by 5 degrees or so, not as tight as I would like, but hopefully tight enough. Also Saturn is in Cancer, which sucks for Saturn, but means that it is in the sign where Jupiter is elevated, and Jupiter is in Pisces, his second domicile sign). So my Jupiter might be able to explain some things to my Saturn. Of course Jupiter also always starts rambling, and my inner Saturn is like: Can`t you shut up and keep shut up at least ONCE? (Saturn in Cancer in 8th house, widely conjunct Eros - we are NOT talking about that stuff, except Jupiter does. What else could Jupiter do? Being in the 3rd house. lol)

[lumina]

of course using the equal house system we would find Jupiter in the 4th house, not the 3rd, Saturn still in 8th - that is using the ASC-based equal system.

in the MC-based equal system my Jupiter would be in 3rd house and my Saturn in 7th house. I think this fits me too from a more external, public perspective. Actually the MC equal system is interesting, as it has the 1st house starting in CApricorn, with Saturn in 7th house, and I am very much oriented towards others and at least trying to be a teamplayer when being out in public, either in job things or in a social sense. Well I try to be, somehow I am still getting pushed now and then into leading positions, but only in more "exclusive" settings somehow, smaller ones, in the broad public sphere I (like to) disappear and working from the background, still people seem to appreciate me (even though I often think they just misinterprete my personality and think I am more capbable than I really am and often feel almost like a fraud, because they see me as this organized pragmatic worker, who has everything under control and is not losing it or having any fears but just gets to the task at hand, and I don´t think that is really me, or just the tip of the iceberg. But they probably see my Venus right on the 1st house cusp in that MC-system, and the "behind the scenes" thing and me trying to disappear from view a little (which is difficult with Venus right on the 1st house) might be described by my Sag stellium switching into the 12th house from that perspective (actually when starting astrology I thought I had my horoscope wrong, I had been thinking there had to be a 12th house stellium, and more Pisces influence.)

Rambling again sorry. Yeah staying on topic is difficult for me. lol

[geminiblues]

So, technically I have the opposition with a 6° orb, only, it's part of a 4 planet tsquare for me. Pluto Uranus conjunction 5° opposite Saturn sR with Mercury and the vx at the Apex of the T with the closest orbs to each thus trying it all together. Also, Uranus and Pluto straddle the 11th house cusp, though both in virgo.

I can see parts of the Saturn Pluto aspect in me. Dislike of authority is high on the list. Especially in the larger societal area (11th house Pluto). I don't particularly see the violence part though. And while my life has certainly had it's start all.over again moments, I think my Tau Jupiter trine to Pluto has moderated the most devasting parts by and large. I also wonder if Saturn stationed Rx (and Uranus's involvement) help with the being stuck part.

I believe this is also a situation that demonstrates the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. With an isolated aspect, you only have the binary choice. 8n this case, you can do pluto or you can do Saturn. Do either and the other blocks. But when you have multiple aspects (half the chart aspects Pluto, and throw in trine's to Venus and the asc for saturn) there are other avenues to let the energy out.

[lumina]

May 26, 2020 15:14:38 GMT geminiblues said:

I believe this is also a situation that demonstrates the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. With an isolated aspect, you only have the binary choice. 8n this case, you can do pluto or you can do Saturn. Do either and the other blocks. But when you have multiple aspects (half the chart aspects Pluto, and throw in trine's to Venus and the asc for saturn) there are other avenues to let the energy out.

That is how I see it too.

[Violets]

I’m trying to get in here to dig into this aspect more from my own perspective, but it’s HARD, lol. The rebirth description of this aspect is very accurate for me. It’s like with every Saturn transit I become an entirely different person. My beliefs and outlook get an overhaul. I’ve lived a lot of different “lives” in this one lifetime, in many ways. And yeah, there’s a lot of pain involved in that process, and I’m very guarded about that. The description is accurate for me.

The obnoxious hook of this aspect is that I think natives really do have to figure out how to be flexible in order to gain the authority we want—but when things (and people) are out of our control we’re reminded of many painful instances when the inability to control a situation lead to disaster.

[Ava]

Interesting thread. I have the quintile...quintiles are a positive aspect (?) so I don't know why cafeastrology's reading for it is so negative. I don't even feel like quoting it, it's depressing.

For me the more immediate and personal issue is that my mother had an exact square, exact on her true nodal axis...her Pluto squaring her Scorpio NN, her Pluto conjunct my Saturn. So I was born into this tense synastry, my 12H Saturn was shaped by it.

It's a more extreme case for her because of the orb and nodal axis involvement but a theme of my childhood was getting a clear and ominous sense that if she couldn't chill out, she would self-destruct...I remember looking at her when I was little believing, "You can't live like that. This feeling is just too bad."

Yeah, I can believe it's the worst one there is

I respect all of you who have to shoulder that burden.

Pls don't quote