nodal charts

[lumina]

Just stumbled across this article


isarastrology.org/de/jerry-brignonev-intertwining-souls-nodal-charts-in-synastry/

Basically a nodal chart in the author`s sense, is created by bringing the natal NN onto the ASC exact, so modfiying the birthtime, until the natal NN will be precisely on the ASC, and the chart is read from that; the planetary positions stay the same though the Moon can vary, but the houses and angles are different. Unlike the author I use the True Node exclusively. 

Well in my own chart not much changes, as my NN is conjunct my ASC by 3 degrees. However putting the Nn exact there, it also brings Pluto exact to the MC. interesting. 

my parents have an interesting line up for this, bringint their synastric Mars-Saturn-conjunction to my Dad`s nodal DESC exact. and my mums Jupiter to my Dad`s nodal ASC. of course this happens because they have an aspect from her Saturn-jupiter to his Mars-Nodes in synastry. 

this chart of course reflects the nodal aspects, though the other angles are derived from that, and yield interesting results. 

It`s at least worth a look, even though I stay skeptically openminded. lol 

For P Uranus lands on his nodal IC. This shall remain uncommented by me. LOL Interestingly his first born son has Uranus on the IC in his tropical chart, and I am sure this probably is a depiction of the home situation (with his fater sometimes being there and then for long times being not there; his son also have his nodal axis overlaying MC-IC - it is at least interesting to see that Node-Uranus-IC of his son also occurring as Uranus-IC in his father`s nodal chart.) 

[lumina]

imo the factors to focus on are: 

° nodal (charts) angles
° planets (nodal or natal) on the nodal angles
° nodal planets on natal angles (this concerns Moon, and the ruler of the nodal horizon in particular of course)
° nodal Moon and its aspects
° ruler of nodal ASC and DESC in nodal chart and natal chart (though mostly only the house positions will vary, unless Moon rules either)
° ruler of natal ASC and DESC in the nodal chart (again most of the time concerns house positions, and in particular if conjunct a nodal angle tightly). 

just been glancing over my brother and his wife`s charts, and it`s been surprising to me how specific those are, especially in terms of progressions and timing (checked their wedding date - after all the combo ASC and NN is about personal connections/ relationships) and did not expect such a focused and matching picture to emerge. 

[Ava]

Thanks lumina , great find!

I'm just getting into this but wanted to copy this excerpt here:

At that time I was concerned about what we astrologers can do when we have no birth time. It happens once in a while, and is a pity that Astrology cannot give those individuals the beautiful treasures we usually grant. I intensely researched different means and techniques related to possible charts for character description and events forecasting for those instances when no birth time was available. For example the Solar chart, cast for the moment of sunrise, that is, when Sun conjuncts the Ascendant. I also tried with Sun conjunct Midheaven, Moon rising and many other possibilities, and I found some outstanding conclusions related to forecasting means. But, besides the relevance of some of this charts for this or that specific predictive technique, the best “alternative natal chart” for depicting someone’s personality and destiny, by far, was the one cast for the moment the North Node of the Moon conjoined the Ascendant on that particular day, in that particular place. This is the Nodal Chart.

I've been "researching" (ie, looking at many) noon charts, or sun conjunct MC charts, because so many "hits" come up in synastry and composite when I use these. That's for another thread, I'm just appreciating the coincidence that I was mulling over "alternative," viable birth charts to use when birth time is unavailable, and here you present another option. 

This is cool:

Even though the Nodal chart works for every single person born that day in that place, I think there are still strong reasons to consider it particularly significant. At that precise moment, three fundamental planes of human experience coincide: the Moon’s orbit, the Earth’s orbit, or, if you prefer, the Sun’s orbit seen from the Earth’s point of view (the Ecliptic), and the plane associated with our actual perception of the Earth: the local Horizon. This moment is so meaningful for human beings that it should be considered, even when we do have a recorded birth time.

All that being said, I've known a ton of people with their suns on my NN, just a few with their suns on my SN, but hardly anyone with their suns @ 1° Virgo (true-node nodal chart MC) or 1° Pisces. It doesn't seem to hold any special significance for me in synastry. 

There's this:

For this technique I will use the Mean Node, validated not only by tradition and my experience, but by many astrologers’ extensive research.

18° Scorpio, my mean node, has been huge in my life...the mean node nodal chart has the MC @ 29° Leo, which lines up better with my experiences, but it still doesn't hit the "hot spot" of 24 -28° Leo.

Will have to look into it more later. I'm curious about nodal chart composites now....

[lumina]

Oh btw I have just recently stumbled across the mentioning of solar charts again and their merit, when investigating Return charts, and was wanting to have a look at the Solar chart (putting Sun on the ASC), but somehow other things came up.

Hmm I wonder now if we can also do a lunar chart like that or a Venus chart, directing the ASC to those planets, as in the case of the solar or nodal chart, and if this would specify things about the planet in question. Like a lunar chart being descriptive of our emotional life etc.

HOwever the nodal chart will be special, because there is this combining of Sun, MOon and Earth. There is nothing more intimate and personal than that!

[lumina]

been looking at my brother and his wife`s nodal charts. only to what is specific to the nodal charts (most is the same as in natal, except the angles and Moon might move a few degrees).

for my brother
------------------

natal nodal: 

Neptune, ruler of his natal ASC, conjunct nodal DESC : 29 Gemini - 00 Cancer

Mercury, ruler of his natal DESC, and Juno conjunct nodal MC: 28 - 27 - 25 Aquarius

nodal MOon square Sun: 14 Sag - 15 Pisces
(he has this anyway, but the nodal chart makes that square tighter)

natal Moon, ruler of the nodal ASC, trine nodal Venus exact: 14 Sag - 14 Aries


progressed nodal (for his wedding)

pr MC 29 Pisces (the true nodal chart has this on 00 Aries)

pr Moon on 9 Pisces applying to conjunct Sun on 15 PIsces (6 months after the wedding) 

pr Moon on 9 Pisces applying to conjunct pr Juno on 12 PIsces (3 months after the wedding)

pr Node trine n Mercury  and Juno: 28 Gemini to 28 Aqua and 27 Aqua





his wife
----------

natal nodal

Jupiter, ruler of nodal DESC conjunct natal MC: 10-11 Cap

nodal Moon on 25 Virgo oppositen Sun on 26 Pisces, and sextile Mars, ruler of natal ASC, on 26 Scorpio
- she too has the opposition in her natal and it is made tighter, in particular it brings Moon even closer to my brother`s natal horizon


progressions

pr DESC conjunct pr Jupiter, nodal DESC-ruler: 11-12 Cap


- I noticed there usually not that many progressions, but those that happen are mindblowingly specific. 


their synastry--------
------------------------
his nodal DESC conjunct her Neptune: 0 - 1 Cap
his nodal Moon conjunct her URanus, her nodal MC ruler: 14 - 13 Sag
her nodal DESC conjunct his Jupiter, his natal MC ruler: 10 Sag
her nodal DESC conjunct his natal Moon, his nodal ASC-ruler: 10 - 11 Sag
her nodal Moon conjunct his natal DESC: 25 Virgo exact
her Sun, ruler of her nodal IC, conjunct his natal ASC: 26 - 25 Pisces

progressed synastry---------
----------------------------
his pr Moon conjunct her pr MC: 9 Pisces
his pr Moon square her pr Node: 9 Pisces - 8 Gemini
his pr Mercury conjunct her pr MErcury: 4 - 3 Taurus (Mercury rules his natal DESC and her nodal ASC)
his pr Mars conjunct her pr Mercury: 4 Taurus (Mars rules his intercepted 1st house, and her nodal ASC)
his pr Uranus conjunct her pr SN: 8 Sag (Uranus rules his nodal MC)



especially the progressed synastry is quite impressive, as well as the synastry, I mean a DW of Moon-DESC? and that exact alignment of his pr MOon, which of course disposits his NN and is therefore ruler of his nodal ASC, to her pr MC- the MC relating to your status in the world after all, and of course their status changed when they got married!

EDIT
they also had her pr Venus conjunct his Venus on 14 Aries exact (his natal Venus is on 13°59 Aries, and makes the switch to the next degree in nodal chart)

his pr Venus opposite her Mars from 25 Taurus - 26 Scorpio

[lumina]

I find the progressed charts most interesting. 

some more examples: 


my parents
--------------

my Mom had at the time of their wedding: 

pr nodal DESC conjunct Sun: 4 - 3 Scorpio
pr nodal Moon trine pr Sun: 26 Cancer - 26 Scorpio
pr nodal Uranus on pr nodal IC: 13 Cancer


my Dad had: 

pr nodal ASC trine pr Venus: 3 Gemini - 3 Aquarius (they got married with Tr Sun on 3 Gemini too)
his natal Juno is at 4 Libra, his pr Juno was at 2 Libra

pr Mars had reached his natal nodal DESC exact: 10 Libra


synastrically they had
------------------------

her pr Mercury (ruling her nodal DESC) on his natal IC: 15 - 14 Sag
her pr Venus (9 Libra) and pr Saturn (11 Libra) on his natal Mars (9 Libra) and nodal DESC (10 Libra) and pr Mars (10 Libra

her pr Moon (26 Cancer) applying to his pr IC (28 Cancer): all nodal chart. 
(Moon ruling her natal ASC

[lumina]

For my best friend and her husband it looked like this (I am only naming the most specific and noteable aspects)


my friend had:

pr nodal Moon having come to conjunct her natal Moon exact on 15 Aries
and both opposing her pr Sun on 15 Libra

this fullmoon was trine/ sextile pr Saturn on 14 Leo


pr nodal MC conjunct nodal Sun, the natal IC-ruler and nodal MC ruler on 17 Virgo

pr Venus square pr Saturn: 14 Scorpio - 14 Leo: 0°10 separating
(Venus ruling her nodal DESC)

her nodal IC is also exactly conjunct her natal MC at 19 Aquarius, which is widely conjunct her husband`s natal Moon on 15 Aquarius



for her husband it was like this:

nodal Moon semisextile Sun: 13 Aqua - 12 Cap (not a major aspect, however like in all the other cases before, the natal Sun-Moon-aspect was made tighter in the nodal chart - this is not always true however, for P for example his nodal Moon is separating from hsi natal Sun)


his progressed Venus squaring progressed nodal MC: 7 Cap - 7 Libra
pr Venus widely conjunct natal ASC on 9 Cap - possibly his birthtime not totally correct?

pr Venus on 7 Cap sextile pr Uranus on 7 Scorpio
I think this is important because Venus rules his nodal DESC and natal IC


alltogether this is not a totally strong overwhelming progressive picture, however the synastry with my friend was strong. So I think that he might not have gotten married per se, but just because it was her.


synastrically:

his pr Juno conjunct her pr nodal MC: 17 Virgo
his pr Juno conjunct her pr nodal Sun: 17 Virgo

his pr nodal MC conjunct her Mercury, ruler of her ASC in natal: 7 Libra

his pr Sun/Moon-mp (pr Sun 11 Aqua - nodal pr Moon 27 Aqua) on 19 Aquarius conjunct her nodal IC and natal MC, both on 19 Aquarius - this one actually gave me goosebumps, it is so oddly specific.

her pr Venus conjunct his natal MC, both on 14 Scorpio
(her pr Saturn square his natal MC, too, of course)

Venus rules or disposits both their nodal DESC`s and his natal IC

[Ava]

'Appreciate the in-depth studies, lumina . 

Still haven't gotten around to conducting my own investigations, 'would be much easier if software produced the nodal chart on command, but...

Dec 12, 2019 19:21:43 GMT Ava said:

the mean node nodal chart has the MC @ 29° Leo, which lines up better with my experiences, but it still doesn't hit the "hot spot" of 24 -28° Leo.

Actually on second thought, my husband's PLUTO is @ 29 Leo. And my NN is Scorpio. Very neat. 

I know you are not impressed with the mean node; Steven Forrest makes a strong case for them, which left a strong impression on me. Without an educated opinion, I just sit on the fence and entertain details whimsically rather than concretely. 

My Pisces boss is prominent in my life at the moment. His NN @ 29 Leo, so it's neat to learn about these charts now, when I'm just wondering what he's going to do next (destiny issues). 

[lumina]

Ava

The proof is in the pudding.
😉 The mean nodes work with mathematical precision, at least with progressions.

[lumina]

Dec 17, 2019 3:31:15 GMT Ava said:

I know you are not impressed with the mean node; Steven Forrest makes a strong case for them, which left a strong impression on me. Without an educated opinion, I just sit on the fence and entertain details whimsically rather than concretely. 

I am on the fence, too. 

Well, several really good astrologers like Rudhyar, Forrest, Tyl etc. use the mean Nodes. 
your anedotal evidence also supports their validity, and let`s be honest, my own chart does as well (for example last year a few weeks around/ before the coffee-event, my pr mean Node started to be precisely conjunct my natal ASC. No orb. Not easy to simply brush that off. the solar arc of my direct Node to P`s natal Venus apparently did not work, and other solar arcs have worked in synastry before, so there is that - practical evidence).

What is true however is that how Cochrane describes it, that since the nodal axis is an intersection of the Moon with the earth plane, and so if the Moon has a latitude of 0.00 N/S, it should be conjunct the lunar Node, as this is the definition (0.00 in latitude or was it declination? Means bringing an object in exact crossing with the earth plane). this is only true for the true Node, at least with an 0°00 orb. 

Question is: is it valid to allow a certain orb for this? 
(the orb is not that wide of course). 

That is the core question for me. 

However, I did use the mean Nodes for the nodal charts here as the author did that, and who am I to simply change his approach, he finds is working well? 

and honestly I am flabbergasted with the precision of the progressions of the mean Nodes! (Just realized that on that encounter with P that stood out 3 years ago, when he was so focused on me and trying to squeeze informations, randomly, out of my aquaintance about me with me standing nearby, well my solar mean Node was on 21°29 Cap, in between Avx on 21°28 Cap and Sun/Moon-mp on 21°31 Cap)


Well I guess those are some practical points for the mean node that cannot be discussed away, now I just have to find a theoretical reason that makes sense to me. lol 


Of course it means I have to rethink the Draconics too, as obviously they should be calculated with mean Node, if we are using the mean node for other charts. 

It actually changes some things in the synastry with P, making the Venus-Saturn-conjunction a little wider, bringing the IC-MC-conjunction extremely close together, both on 25 Cap on his natal venus on 25 Cap. 

Also my Draco Moon makes the jump to 7 Gemini, which is the exact degree of my tropical DESC, seems just a better match somehow. (it also puts P`s Draco Chiron onto 7°02 Sag conjunct my tropical ASC 7°01 Sag way too exact, but again, doesn`t it fit reality in a way?). 

somehow the images get more focused with the mean nodes, which I would not have expected, but there you go. I guess I am on the way of being converted by reality itself. lol 

[midnight]

Sounds very interesting.
lumina sorry if my question is silly, but should I move it back or ahead? My Asc is in Virgo 7 and my NN is in Gem 23. When I move it (7 hours) back it moves my Nodal chart Moon exactly on my natal IC. If I move it ahead, the time difference is bigger (17hours) and it also changes the date.

[lumina]

Keep the date. So in your case move it back.

[Ava]

Dec 17, 2019 12:10:44 GMT lumina said:

Well I guess those are some practical points for the mean node that cannot be discussed away, now I just have to find a theoretical reason that makes sense to me.

What is the reason the mean node exists at all? I'm not clear on that. 

Forrest says:

"One can take all of these factors into account, and see that the actual moment-to-moment position of the lunar nodes is quite twitchy. Essentially that is how the true node is calculated—although in reality most astrological computer do not take all of these effects fully into account. Even the “true” node is not really true. The bottom line is the calculated true node’s motion is eccentric. It can even sometimes go briefly Direct.

The mean node assumes the simpler view: that the Moon orbits the center of the Earth. The effect is to smooth everything out a bit."

www.forrestastrology.com/blogs/astrology/mean-nodes-vs-true-nodes

Dec 17, 2019 12:10:44 GMT lumina said:

Of course it means I have to rethink the Draconics too, as obviously they should be calculated with mean Node, if we are using the mean node for other charts.

Beats me.

Dec 17, 2019 12:10:44 GMT lumina said:

somehow the images get more focused with the mean nodes, which I would not have expected, but there you go. I guess I am on the way of being converted by reality itself. lol

It's hard because there's so much data and so many ways to interpret it. My draco moon moves even closer to my tropical Saturn with the mean node chart -- sharper focus. But nothing's very sharp when my birth chart is rectified (and there is always that Kannon-style ambiguity about when the birth actually occurred, or even a less radical debate about time, like with a c-section, at what point is the child born? When he or she sees the light of day or is lifted out, or what? Splitting hairs.)

I think at some point you really are just speaking with the charts and it's almost like divination, the way things just appear and line up and seem to tell stories, in that moment, about that day's issues. 

[lumina]

Ava

"What is the reason the mean node exists at all? I'm not clear on that.
"
It`s a simplified/ smoothed out version of the True Node, probably it was the one existing first, I could imagine. It smoothes out the wobble of the earth or something. 








"(and there is always that Kannon-style ambiguity about when the birth actually occurred, or even a less radical debate about time, like with a c-section, at what point is the child born? When he or she sees the light of day or is lifted out, or what? Splitting hairs.)
"
Yeah well I don´t follow Kannon or Cayce on this. if we say a horoscope is the real one hours after the birth, why not extend it to days after or before, or weeks? Why stop at 12 hours for example? 

Birth is defined as the moment the new born is taking their first breath on their own. (there are instances where a baby actually already takes the first breath while still being in the womb, but we are talking here about minutes or maybe up to an hour surrounding the birth, not like a whole day span! That is arbitrary to me, and some of the esoteric blaba. Sorry to put it that bluntly, but it is what I really think. 

[Ava]

^ Thanks lumina . I respect David Cochrane a lot but probably already watched that and forgot everything...well I learn better with concise information, and he tends to ramble or go on tangents where I'm not on that wavelength, so I zone out.

Anyway...

* My husband's mean-node nodal chart features Leo Mars on the MC. Of course, Mars is the traditional ruler of his NN, Scorpio. I don't know what to make of this except Mars-MC matches his draconic Capricorn Mars.

* Our composite nodal chart ASC-node is conjunct Mercury...again, in Scorpio.

?

Why this? What does Mercury have to do with anything? Maybe it's just that the chart ruler is Pluto in Virgo.

Have you checked nodal composites?

I was talking about my boss up there (not a fixation, just a momentary issue), and my nodal pr comp with him has Saturn right on the MC, which is fitting, lol. Job stress.

MC-Saturn squares my draconic sun, doesn't that figure? All I wanted to do was put out all of nature's goodness for the community, serving healthy food (Taurus draco sun), but noooo, Saturn had to get in the way. 

Pls don't quote

[lumina]

Ava

Just a short peek at the composites.ut found they warrant close inspectiin.

Example

P an his wife's pr composite had an exact, 5 minute applying trine, from venus on23 pisces to mars on 23 cancer when they git married. Their nodal composite mc is on 23 pisces.



My brother and his wife have mercury on 17 pisces, sun on 21 pisces and venus in 23 pisces, when they got married pr conposite mc was on 19. pisces. Mercury rules their asc node

[lumina]

Ava

interesting about your husband. WEll Mars is prominent in his chart it seems and your composite. Is it on your mean nodal MC, his Mars?

MErcury, - P`s Mercury conjuncts my mean nodal ASC-NEptune-NOde exact (all on 9 Sag), but Mercury rules EVERYTHING for us; his natal Virgo DESC, his natal Gemini IC, his natal Gemini 3rd house, his Virgo NN, and disposits his Virgo Mars, it rules my Gemini - DESC, my intercepted 9th house in Virgo (fitting for a Sag), disposits my Draco Moon on my tropical DESC exact and rules my Gemini-SN as well, also rules my Draco Virgo-DESC.

So it is all over our charts. Well his Mercury also conjuncts my Mars and ASC.


No clue why Merucry is so important for the two of you, but I wonder if the fact that MErcury disposits YOUR Mars and HIS Venus has a say in it?

[lumina]

oh forgot to say, def. makes sense with that Saturn

[lumina]

Ava

mentioning P`s and his wife`s progressed composite Venus-Mars-trine (that is separating by now by 1°57), I just found it a tad strange when I found that OUR pr composite has a building Venus-Mars-trine as well, not in orb yet, and it is tied to Uranus, and that Mars-Uranus in turn is squared by Sun, so a bit of a different situation. AT the moment it is in pr composite Mars on 11°00 Scorpio conjunct Uranus on 13°48 Scorpio and natal composite URanus on 12°24 Scorpio, and pr Venus on 8°59 Pisces, and pr Sun on 9°56 Aquarius - and well it will move closer together. 

The Venus-Mars-trine will be at its peak in two years (coming into 1 degree orb in december 2020), with Venus on 11 Pisces and Mars on 11 Scorpio. IN march/ april 2021 pr composite MOon will be at 10-11 Virgo. 

Just finding this interesting as this will emphasize my Jupiter on 11 Pisces (falling onto the pr composite Venus) in opposition to his Mars-Jupiter on 11-10 Virgo (with the pr composite Moon falling there, and obviously Venus will be opposite this). of course pr composite Sun will be in a 5 minute applying square to pr composite Mars (albeit also just having trined natal composite Jupiter, exact in september next year. 

Well we will see, but just thought it was funny that our composite also will have a Venus-Mars-trine, and also in the wather signs, just instead of in Cancer, Mars is in Scorpio. 

[midnight]

I've been playing with Node charts and saw some pretty interesting results. I still need to read all of your comments but from what I'm seeing so far, it seems legit

What is the max orb? Some were exact, others were close (our Nodes Composite Moon19, IC21 and Sun24)