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Post by Violets on Dec 12, 2017 20:02:12 GMT
I'm not a huge Radiohead fan by any stretch, but this song really reminds me of how Saturn transits feel to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 21:14:47 GMT
Funny that Radiohead song feels like a soft Pluto aspect to me I don’t think I can fully convey how I feel about Saturn and Pluto just yet. I come from a very heavy Pluto family (not scorpionic per se, but def plutonic). Every generation of my mother side has Pluto sun hard aspect of some sort. My mother has a Saturn opposition to her sun-Pluto conjunction and I on the other hand have Pluto square, sun-Saturn conjunct. How it has played out is find external circumstances plutonic and she found them Saturnian, so as we get older i become more Plutonian and she became more Saturnian. As in I became more open to changes and she became more conservative and structured. What I’ve found quite interesting is that most sun-Saturn conjunct have very tumultuous youth, often borderline delinquency... ppl in authority positions often had troubles acknowledging or admitting these ppl’s gifts and these natives continue to have some mild contempt for the establishment for the rest of their life. P!nk, Arnold S., Santiago Ramon y Cajal, etc. I mean there are quite a few. I surprisingly don’t find the same narrative for sun-Pluto conjunct despite Pluto being a planet of change and destructions. Often with Pluto there’s less of a material manifestation and more of a psychological influence. With Saturn there can be serious physical abuses (i.e. beating) that occur over a long period of time and natives when they finally break free from these struggles don’t completely denounced these abusive instances, Saturn imho is not dispassionate, it tests temporary fire to see what will endure. Saturn also imho is a much more important and influential planet. It holds the truth to the reconstruction and destruction of things that aren’t made of real substances. I find myself significantly more comfortable with Saturnian individuals despite Pluto heavily aspects in my chart because with Pluto there’s an even wider learning curve and plutonic individuals can often self sabotage and sabotage the whole team just because they do not get what they want. There’s less of self awareness in plutonic individuals. One of the key difference between Saturn/Cap/Aqua control and that of Scorpio is Saturn is still aware of where it places in the mass. Yet plutonic individuals can easily blame everyone for what befalls them. At their best, they are a force of light. But too often in real life i don’t often find plutonic ppl not caught in sine kinds of egoistic fears - ie if I own up to my own mistakes in the past I have to sacrifice my hurt ego so I won’t wveb bother and let the ship sinks and live the rest of my life in confinement and never stop being afraid somebody might get too close and dig up all the dirt. In fact I’d argue that very few plutonic individuals can be of great contributions to the world if they don’t have some grounded Saturn aspects. You can’t really say that it would go the other way around tho
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Post by Violets on Dec 12, 2017 22:43:25 GMT
@theunknown, it's interesting that you note tumultuous childhoods in people with Saturn conjunct Sun, because the two people in my life who immediately come to mind with that conjunction did indeed have abusive childhood experiences--physical or psychological. One pulled herself off the "wrong path" by enrolling in a military school in her teens, and the other is now a teacher (although he didn't go outside the bounds much in his youth).
Interesting observation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 22:48:04 GMT
Violets take one to know one as they say
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Post by Violets on Dec 12, 2017 23:14:09 GMT
@theunknown, they are very hard workers, absolutely making a difference in the world as you mentioned (the person who is not a teacher works long, hard hours out in the back country with the Forest Service, preserving trails in the summer and going to college the rest of the year). Two of my favorite relatives to hang out with, honestly.
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Post by Ava on Dec 13, 2017 1:29:30 GMT
Thanks for your observations, @theunknown .
It's interesting, the family patterns you mentioned.
I have something a bit similar. I have sun-Saturn mutual reception.
- My father's Cancer Pluto tightly opposed my Cap sun - My mother's Pluto was tightly conjunct my Leo Saturn
Great parents but they weren't around very long. Their deaths (Pluto) made my life harder (Saturn), but also, it creates this situation where I stand alone, not bound by family expectations or pressures (singleton sun, chart ruler).
But it's interesting, you know, Pluto is probably associated with the reincarnation cycle, because it involves death, transformation, rebirth. In that way, it's more of a process. And then I suppose Saturn is where that actual incarnation takes effect in material reality. Yeah, so maybe like...
Pluto = functional mechanics, design, cycles, Higher Meaning (architect/blueprints) Saturn = form mechanics, things taking shape (buildings)
So I think it makes sense that Saturn and Pluto will turn up in family patterns and have a multi-generational meaning, at least for those of us who have some key Saturn-Pluto themes?
It definitely works out like that in my case, where my children share key Saturn/Pluto links with their grandparents, but I haven't given it too much thought; I mean Venus may be just as prominent, I'm just not focused on that at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 2:44:45 GMT
Well I was more or less comparing how Pluto and Saturn pan out in one’s life and also answer your original question.
I think Saturn has a lot to do with trust. The mythology of Saturn was about Kronos believing his children would take his power so he ate them all. For both Aquarius and Capricorn, it’s about trusting that the process is fair enough. It’s never perfect but Saturnian job is to better it every day. That’s why most Saturnian spent their youths rebelling against the system but later protect it when they’re older because as imperfect as institutions are, they are still the foundations for something long term.
Maybe it’s not as clear in my post but I find Saturnians can be much more brutal, cruel and exacting that Plutonian. Because when we finally do something, it’s more of: This. Must. Be. Done. rather than “I’m so angry I’ll prove you wrong” which is the sentiment I see in plutonians..
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Post by Violets on Dec 13, 2017 2:59:19 GMT
I think that's valid regarding shared aspects within families, Ava. My oldest son and I both have natal Saturn/Pluto square, and my Pluto is conjunct his Saturn, lol. There's a lot of love to go around, but yes we butt heads. Well...everyone in my family butts heads, but we love each other. 😅 My maternal grandfather and I both have/had Pluto opposite Venus; my dad has Pluto/Saturn conjunct his Asc from his 1st house, and my youngest has Saturn/Mars conjunct in 1st. My maternal grandmother had Pluto conjunct Sun, I have Pluto quincunx Sun, etc. I'm enjoying this thread, can you tell? I mean, they're interesting planets to look at! 😅
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Post by Ava on Dec 13, 2017 12:50:33 GMT
Maybe it’s not as clear in my post but I find Saturnians can be much more brutal, cruel and exacting that Plutonian. Because when we finally do something, it’s more of: This. Must. Be. Done. rather than “I’m so angry I’ll prove you wrong” which is the sentiment I see in plutonians.. I do see some of that. Well Saturn is a transpersonal planet, so it's acting on principles that are basically impersonal. And if a person is fighting for a cause, something bigger than themselves, they are acting more from the brain than the heart. It's not about one person's emotions but about the whole tribe's security, therefore it requires more effort, more brutality, more of everything, to get it done.
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Post by Ava on Dec 13, 2017 13:24:16 GMT
I think that's valid regarding shared aspects within families, Ava . My oldest son and I both have natal Saturn/Pluto square, and my Pluto is conjunct his Saturn, lol. There's a lot of love to go around, but yes we butt heads. Well...everyone in my family butts heads, but we love each other. 😅 My maternal grandfather and I both have/had Pluto opposite Venus; my dad has Pluto/Saturn conjunct his Asc from his 1st house, and my youngest has Saturn/Mars conjunct in 1st. My maternal grandmother had Pluto conjunct Sun, I have Pluto quincunx Sun, etc. I'm enjoying this thread, can you tell? I mean, they're interesting planets to look at! 😅 Thank you! I don't want to be the only one looking into all this, as it comes up. So I appreciate your examples. No need to contemplate the following, it's messy, I'm just thinking aloud. ~ ~ ~ I'm trying to think of how to communicate this one train of thought I've got. I don't know what it is, exactly. My oldest son and my mother are linked because he was born 3 weeks early, on the anniversary of her death. Totally unplanned, I'm not morbid and crazy like that. So no one in my family can ignore their connection. In this way, he's essentially Plutonic, born on a death anniversary. And in keeping with that theme, he's got an 8H Sag sun conjunct Pluto. I don't think he's the reincarnation of my mother (he's WAY more mellow than her, lol) but Pluto does seem to be about one thing rising from the ashes of another, and that fits here, at least with the date these events occurred. And then Saturn is about materialization. Sure enough, his Saturn is conjunct hers in Taurus, though widely. He's got Saturn on the ASC, trine his Cap moon. So it's like he arrived "through" Saturn. His Aqua-Leo nodes square her Taurus-Scorpio nodes. She had Saturn conjunct her SN, he's got Saturn squaring his nodes. Her Pluto is conjunct his NN. All in all, considering these things, it's just no wonder to me that he was born that day. I have a Cap sun (Saturn) square Pluto and Jupiter, so it makes sense that Sag/Jupiter would show up in my Saturn/Pluto processes. And this son, my mother, and I all have Jupiter in Aries. Their composite Jupiter is exactly conjunct my Jupiter. --- A similar thing happens with my middle son, whose chart is very similar to my father's, including sun conjunct sun. My son's Pluto is conjunct my Dad's ASC-SN in Sag. So here we go with Sag again. My son is Cap rising with 1H Cap moon in mutual reception with Saturn. His moon conjunct my sun, his Saturn conjunct my Saturn. Considering all this Saturn reverb with him, and considering the fact that Saturn is associated with the father, it's almost hilarious how similar his chart is to my father's. --- I just have this vague and still sloppy idea that things are initiated through Pluto as part of a larger cycle (Pluto does have a huge orbit, after all), and then materialize through Saturn. My oldest son's NN is conjunct his grandmother's Pluto, and he was born on the date she died. My next son's Pluto is exactly conjunct his grandfather's SN, and he was born the date he was born (almost -- one day later). These sons have their moons conjunct in Capricorn, and they're taking after their maternal grandparents. Well I'll just leave it at that because this hints at something more complex, I think, but I can't pin it down.
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Post by Violets on Dec 13, 2017 15:23:17 GMT
I actually think that's a very valid theory, Ava. I mean about Pluto and Saturn, and how things manifest. Your sons' connections to their grandparents is pretty amazing. 😳 Also, I just woke up, so I might be able to add a bit later. ☕️
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Post by Violets on Dec 13, 2017 15:27:37 GMT
Along those lines, my husband's Pluto is trine my Mars in synastry, and our oldest son has the trine in natal. Our youngest has Pluto (Chart Ruler) trine Venus.
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Post by Ava on Dec 14, 2017 3:02:48 GMT
I actually think that's a very valid theory, Ava . Thank you! It's just something my mind got stuck on. It's nice that your sons have some flowing Pluto aspects, repeating what you have with your husband. I'm tired and having some trouble concentrating but I think 7-17° Cap may be the "hot zone" where my husband, kids and I all have something. The only 10° range in the zodiac where we cluster...that includes my husband's draconic stellium, though. It's interesting that we sort of took shape as a family while transiting Pluto was going over those ten degrees. I mean there were some wobbly times, but everything stuck together.
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Post by geminiblues on Dec 17, 2017 1:54:03 GMT
How do I tell? Pluto is chart ruler and makes major aspects to 4 planets in my chart, 5 if you include the sextile. Saturn also makes 4 major aspects to planets as well as trine the Ascendant. Pluto is opposite Saturn, involved in a t square to Mercury (sun sign ruler and final depositor). Uranus is there too, conjunct Pluto, opposite Saturn. Saturn trine NN, both square the vertex... 8th house (plutonian) sun, 10th house (saturine) moon, they both have their say in my chart.
Let's just say you don't want them double teaming you.
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Post by geminiblues on Dec 17, 2017 3:24:15 GMT
I was born in the summer of 1964. True to my 8th house sun, I was born at the sunset of an age.
The King was dead, and the country was in mourning, but the widowed queen was still on everybody's mind. The heir apparent was still the heir apparent, and the regent was carrying out the king's will in his name. The cold warriors were still abroad propping up the king's allies, and the dominance of the kingdom was still unquestioned.
The signs of the changes to come went unnoticed. As an example, I point to music. Elvis was still king, though he had moved on to movies. The Beatles had arrived in the US and we're introduced to the country by the most conventional of means, an appearance on Ed Sullivan. They weren't the Sgt Pepper White Album Beatles, but the pop rock band still trying to out do Buddy Holly. The Supremes were, well, supreme, performing a perfected form of music from the glorious sunset of the age, the 50's.
But the storm clouds were on the horizon. Change was soon to engulf the country.
So, what on Earth does this have to do with this topic? Or even with astrology?
Pluto, Uranus, and Saturn. Specifically the coming Pluto Uranus conjunction, and Saturn in opposition.
The conjunction of Uranus Pluto last occurred in the 1800's, kicking off the Victorian era. The 50's in any number of ways, were the glorious sunset of that age. (By the way, go watch the Crown on Netflix and see if you can see it as it slips away episode by episode). The coming conjunction started a new cycle, one we've yet to come of with a name for. Personally, I think it's the "pre-aquarian transition", though I'm not optimistic about where that is leading. The first conjunction arrived in 1965, though it went "in orb" in 1963. But in the spring of 1964, Saturn entered Pisces, retrograded back to aqua, then forward into Pisces again, before progressing far enough to be our of orb of the opposition in 1967. Look to the battles of Vietnam... You'll see the effect of the Pluto Uranus conjunction there. Note that the 65 and 66 engagements were generally when Saturn was still opposed but Rx... But by 67, Saturn had progressed to far. 68 was the final Pluto Uranus conjunction. Saturn was well into Aries. The new age was here, and the world was in chaos.
I see Saturn as the doomed hero in this story. Desperately holding on to what was, trying to hold back the chaos. Pluto was supercharged by Uranus, tearing down what was good with what was bad, setting fires just for the sake of watching it all burn. In my chart, Saturn makes the trine to Venus, NN, and ASC, opposing Pluto Uranus. My Venus is in Cancer, so I suppose it's only natural for me to feel a little meloncoly about the things that were, and are no more.
But to me, to those born close to my time, we live out those charts of the early 60's every day. They are our natal charts. There is a divide between me and those just a couple years older, and another with those 4 or more years younger. They don't live out the cusp of the age. They don't know the opposition between what was and what might be, or the cost paid.
So, the TLDR... Am I Saturine, Plutonian, or something else?
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Post by Ava on Dec 17, 2017 19:59:25 GMT
That was such an epic analysis, geminiblues. Well it's inevitable, some are Saturn-Pluto hybrids. Reminds me of my 1964 Scorpio brother acting like my father (Saturn): "You must accomplish this. That is your mission. You MUST." 'Just a hint of "...or your future will be engulfed in flames." Saturn-Pluto in Capricorn really makes me wonder.
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Post by geminiblues on Dec 19, 2017 6:29:39 GMT
That was such an epic analysis, geminiblues. Well it's inevitable, some are Saturn-Pluto hybrids. Reminds me of my 1964 Scorpio brother acting like my father (Saturn): "You must accomplish this. That is your mission. You MUST." 'Just a hint of "...or your future will be engulfed in flames." Saturn-Pluto in Capricorn really makes me wonder. Thanks! I'm.pretty sure your brother's Saturn would have been back in Aqua by then, so out of range for the opposition, but it was probably pretty close to stationing direct, which would give it a kick. Hmmm, 2 water sign siblings, your moon makes the third... My mom's family was all Aries, Cancer, and Scorp (except for 1 libra that didn't really mesh...) My dad, his mom, his sister and I were all air. It runs in families I think.
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Post by Ava on Dec 19, 2017 15:46:41 GMT
geminibluesOh true! So it's different from Saturn/Pluto opposition. I guess he's just more Plutonian. And his sun's on my NN so maybe that's why he was bossy. Checking again, my Aqua brother has the Saturn/Pluto-Uranus opposition, but he wouldn't hurt a fly. I mean he's an Army vet and trained to kill, but that's really hard to imagine. (Ha, maybe that's an ultimate "secret weapon," nobody would see it coming. Well nobody does subtlety like Virgo/Pisces.) Thanks for remembering my sister's a Cancer. Then I have a Pisces moon brother, so four out of six with water luminaries, plus another brother has sun trine moon. The Aquarius has Pisces Mars opposing his moon. I guess that helps explain why we all love music...most of them play instruments. Going over these charts I'm realizing we all have Mercury-Saturn aspects except for one brother, but he's got a sun-Mercury-Venus-Saturn stellium, so they're both conjunct the sun. That helps explain why there seemed to be more music than actual conversation. Why speak when you can just play the piano or blare MTV? Hmmmm Neither of my parents had Mercury-Saturn natally but they have the sesquiquadrate in composite. If that's what generated the pattern with all their kids, I'm really amazed. Meh, sorry for overtalking about my family but you know Capricorn, this sign never shuts up about our families...LOL Well it's on topic for Saturnine.
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Dec 19, 2017 18:33:56 GMT
*listening* Not sure which camp I'm more a part of. But this is an interesting read.
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Post by anela on Dec 21, 2017 21:57:10 GMT
This is me with either one of them:
They cut off the beginning that set her off. "I was right!!" The character has been through something really difficult, and was stuck in a room with her annoying mother. She's a workaholic, who sneaked into rounds in her gown, and figured out a patient was lying. That's basically me when I find that I was right, after being lied to, or treated like crap. Or when I'm just dealing with something really hard.
I can also be both Saturn and Pluto. Very practical about some things, and I'll dig deep until I get bored, or just decide to let something be a mystery. Sometimes a mystery being solved can be a letdown.
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