Saturnine versus Plutonian

[Ava]

Any thoughts on the matter?

As a Cap, Saturn is more comfortable to me. I wonder if Scorpio-heavy people find Plutonian energy more comfortable?

It's hard for me to manage and sustain high-intensity emotion, I wasn't built for it. So while Saturn can feel stern, I think there's also a mellow consistency and slow-motion aspect to it, which gives a person time to get used to things. Pluto can feel great, like it's burning out impurities, but I associate it with an extremely heavy feeling...it seems to have more gravity than Saturn.

Maybe that's just my inbuilt prejudice, though.

===

I was reading Linda Goodman's Love Signs, which is available free online. The section on Cap/Scorpio has many interesting observations, juxtaposing these signs....

www.docdroid.net/f4ry/linda-goodman-love-signs.pdf#page=754

"The problem with Scorpio curiosity is that the Eagles tend to spread it into suspicion. They tell themselves that a little suspicion is a healthy thing, a protection against those who take advantage of the gullible. But suspicion can have its negative side, too, and cause the Scorpio to suffer many groundless fears. Capricorns, on the other hand, have no need to trouble themselves with undue suspicion, because the Saturnine caution accomplishes the same self-protective purpose with much less wear and tear on the nervous system.

For all their uneasy suspicions, Scorpios are metaphysically and religiously driven; therefore they believe intensely in the power of faith against all manner of failure (even when they don't openly admit such faith), and this is a major difference between the Pluto-ruled Scorpios and the Saturn-restricted Cappies. "If you really want it," preaches the Eagle to the Goat, "believe you'll attain it, and you surely will." But Capricorn remains unseduced, unmoved, and replies with one of Saturn's own religious beatitudes: "Blessed are they who expect nothing," preaches Cappy, "for they shall not be disappointed."

[Violets]

I'm definitely more comfortable with Pluto energy. I'm more comfortable digging through things that are uncomfortable but need to be faced in order to grow than I am with trudging along dutifully when things become too restrictive for comfort. I can do the latter now, but I vastly prefer to explore and purge.

[Deleted]

Don’t you have sun-Pluto and Scorpio in 4th?

I have a longer response to this... later

[Ava]

Dec 10, 2017 22:06:39 GMT Violets said:

I'm definitely more comfortable with Pluto energy. I'm more comfortable digging through things that are uncomfortable but need to be faced in order to grow than I am with trudging along dutifully when things become too restrictive for comfort. I can do the latter now, but I vastly prefer to explore and purge.

That's awesome. I'm jealous. 

I really balk and try to get away from Pluto. It's hard to describe because by others' standards I am probably already Plutonian: I love occultic stuff, I can be mean, I talk about death, etc.....

But everything has to be within a certain "safe" range, within a cool and intellectual temperature zone. I don't want to lay my emotions on the line, get into some life-or-death passion plays, risk losing control.

I think strong Plutonians can maintain control, even when it looks out of control to others?

But I can't, I feel like my soul will be annihilated. I think that's Saturn's need to STAY, versus Pluto's ability to burn down to ash and rise again.

[Ava]

Dec 10, 2017 23:04:37 GMT @theunknown said:

Don’t you have sun-Pluto and Scorpio in 4th?

I have a longer response to this... later

Yes

Okay thanks

[Violets]

Ava, I can honestly say that I love Pluto energy and am fairly uncomfortable with Saturn energy (despite its trine to my Sun)...but I also wish that I was a little more comfortable with Saturn in the grand scheme of things.

[the89freespirit]

I think the difference between the two energies all comes down to the earthiness versus the wateriness.

Both signs can be in-control, powerful, self-sufficient but Capricorn does this in order to obtain and achieve things while Scorpio does this because of complex issues surrounding intimacy and vulnerability. Capricorn doesn't like to be vulnerable, either, but that's because they're scared they'll fail or that people will think less of them. Scorpio struggles with vulnerability simply because of a fear of getting hurt and reliving some sort of past trauma.

I do have a lot of Scorpio/Pluto influence and I think I vibe better with Plutonian energy, as well. I think I understand Saturn's maturity, wisdom, and restraint really well. It is my secondary chart ruler, after Uranus. But, I think I have a hard time with the Capricorn manifestation of Saturn, probably because my own Saturn is in the 12th and in Capricorn, ruling my 12th. Admittedly, I've never connected super-well with Capricorn people unless we have excellent synastry or other placements that are similar (like with you, Faith!) Otherwise, I have always experienced them as hard to understand and even quite unreachable. I think Aquarius expresses Saturn in a way that's more about being evolved. Capricorn's Saturn expression can be vaguely off-putting to me in a way I can't fully explain.

[Deleted]

This is a great post with great responses.

Initially I was like "I feel equal parts Saturnine and Plutonian" (Saturn trines my Sun) (Pluto is opposite my Sun), but I wanted to back that up with data.. however the Pullen chart on astro.com says Saturn is my most dominant planet, and Pluto is actually my 4th most dominant planet..

I feel very comfortable with Saturn's energy - maybe even more comfortable than most - but there is a point where it can be TOO MUCH. Back in 2012-2014, Saturn was opposite my Sun/Mercury (that transit thru Scorpio) and that experience was positively fucked. This year I experienced Saturn conjunct my IC, inconjunct my Sun/Mercury, square my ASC.. the year before THAT, I had progressed Moon in Cap conjunct Saturn/IC for a bit. Ugh, it's gross. I can't take too much Saturn. There have been a few times this year where shit has felt so dour I numbly thought, "haha why don't I just die instead."

Anyways! I won't ramble on but Pluto energy is the same. It can be deeply productive, transformative, empowering, glorious... but too much and wow, my air moon just can't deal. I had Pluto square my Venus in 2014/2015 and yeah, so many stupid emotional decisions were made then.

In partners I don't know what I prefer. My previous Sag partner had Venus/Uranus in Scorpio and man, I loved the way he loved me. But he could also be emotionally manipulative in some misguided attempt to "preserve our love" which pushed me away in the end.

My Cap Sun/Cap Moon/Cap Saturn partner is so delicious with his dry wit and raw earthy energy, but his lack of demonstrative love has me wondering if he even likes me sometimes.

So it's all give and take.

[Ava]

Wow, thanks!

the89freespirit, I was hoping you'd come by and share your insights. I really wanted to delve into this.

"I think the difference between the two energies all comes down to the earthiness versus the wateriness."

The bottom line ^

"Both signs can be in-control, powerful, self-sufficient but Capricorn does this in order to obtain and achieve things while Scorpio does this because of complex issues surrounding intimacy and vulnerability."

You know the idea that each sign contains and has experienced its preceding signs? I wonder if Capricorn experienced Scorpio intimacy at one point, lost that, moved onto Sag recovery and optimism, and now comes to love with an attitude of, "Intimacy would be great, but I know that fails, and I hate failure.....and if it fails, I'll be okay, anyway." That invulnerable attitude could prevent people from getting close to us. "Whatever happens with you or us....I myself will be okay." It's selfish and to our own detriment to fall into that pattern. Self-reliance is never as strong as a balanced relationship, or a network of support. It's just that we are our own comfort zone. And maybe that's why Saturn feels just fine to me.

"I think I understand Saturn's maturity, wisdom, and restraint really well."

Yes, you reflect that.

"Otherwise, I have always experienced them as hard to understand and even quite unreachable."

It seems to me that Caps are always aiming for permanent connections. They withhold themselves because they think they are just "too much" for people....and it's true, we are. I can read the "stay with me" subtext in many Cap communications and gestures. People either seem to miss that, or get creeped out by it and leave. LOL

[Ava]

Dec 11, 2017 0:10:43 GMT Violets said:

Ava , I can honestly say that I love Pluto energy and am fairly uncomfortable with Saturn energy (despite its trine to my Sun)...but I also wish that I was a little more comfortable with Saturn in the grand scheme of things.

Wow again Violets. I am trying to imagine how to love Pluto. 

My NN is Scorpio. Really, my unwillingness to be like a Scorpio convinces me that this node stuff is true, and I am like the poster child for someone having difficulty attaining the NN. 

To me, Pluto experiences feel vaguely like a chainsaw is buzzing ominously near me. Even Plutonian love, it kinda sounds like a chainsaw, though it draws me in. With my Scorpio ASC ex, I remember thinking, "Is it more painful to step closer to you, or away from you?" Maybe I just need a higher pain tolerance. 

I wonder how you experience Saturn....does it feel suffocating? Enemy-like? Like something is trying to deprive you of what you ardently fought for, and need? Just trying to imagine how Saturn would feel to me, if I weren't more comfortable with it.

[Ava]

athena

" I can't take too much Saturn. There have been a few times this year where shit has felt so dour I numbly thought, "haha why don't I just die instead."

Sorry for laughing! That's sad but so funny how you put it. I remember having a super crappy time with tr Saturn squaring my sun, both from Libra and from Aries, and I ended up in the ER with Saturn opposing my sun (pregnancy scare, but we were okay.)

Actually hang on....you know what, the day that I've called "the worst day of my life" happened with tr Saturn @ 19 Cap, Rx...applying to my sun, retrograde. That was just the day I figured out that my mother would die (tr Saturn sextile my 8H moon, so there's some Pluto in this.) So I'm not looking forward to it being conjunct my sun.

In essence, I 100% agree with you, sometimes it is too much. Well I think the strong aspects exaggerate its normal, low-key expression or something. It's a chronic planet creating an acute problem. That's when it sucks.

".... his lack of demonstrative love has me wondering if he even likes me sometimes."

Ugh...of course I have no idea but for what it's worth, at the time when I was more in love than I ever had been before or since, he complained that I was so distant, he didn't know where he stood with me. This is how bottled-up emotions can get. Caps can be like walking prisons with our emotions held hostage inside.

[Violets]

Ava, if you've ever seen Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow (kind of a random example), Saturn feels to me like that moment when the grey-faced, stern judge points his finger at Johnny Depp and says "YOU, Ichabod Crain, will go to Sleepy Hollow" or something to that effect.

In other words, Saturn energy (I'm thinking of transits, but to some degree the super inflexible Saturn types) feels to me like I'm being sentenced by a cold hearted judge and jury.

I suppose because Pluto is opposite my Venus, square my Saturn, trine my Mercury/Vesta, trine my Dsc, etc I feel more comfortable jumping into the flames to be reborn... more so than I feel comfortable doing something grueling because if I don't the consequences will be worse than the original grueling efforts.

[Ava]

WOW, great comment, Violets, thank you.

Laughing about that Sleepy Hollow scene...no I never saw the movie....I'm still giggling though.

[the89freespirit]

You're welcome, Faith! I always, of course, love our back-and forth here.

Those are some interesting insights into Capricorn. I can actually relate to that level of self-reliance, too, but that's the Saturnine influence on my Aquarius Rising. I was saying myself that I find Capricorn to be unreachable just because of my own chart but I do think it can be quite a mysterious sign, in general. I guess that blend of high self-reliance, a search for permanence/seriousness, and a strong fear of rejection and feeling of inadequacy can lead to those kinds of tricky interactions with others. Maybe that's where some of my reluctance toward the sign's energy comes from because it feels like it tries to pin me down in ways I don't like or something.

I think since Saturn is reality, Capricorn is more about "physical reality" and Aquarius is "intellectual reality", which is where the disconnect comes in. A good example: I was talking to a good friend of mine with a Capricorn Moon. She was discussing this guy she was dating and how he didn't make much money at his job and how she couldn't understand how he lived off of that. I didn't say anything but I felt really uncomfortable with the conversation. I really hate sitting around and talking about money, even if I'm not being talked about (sometimes especially if I'm not the topic of conversation). But, for Capricorn, it's like "Making enough money is just a part of reality. Deal with it." As a working adult, I get it yet I experience it as such a limiting way to think.

With my Aquarius Rising, I just define reality through what I observe, through the mind, whatever ideals I have or evidence that proves something true. I've realized about myself that while I don't have issues dealing with emotions, per se, I do get uncomfortable/impatient with a lot of insecurity in people, including myself. I'm just like, "Everyone's equal, you're fine, it's stupid to get down on yourself, that's just societal conditioning, etc." But, that can be a form of self-limitation, as well, because it keeps me in my head and prevents me from fully accepting everything I'm feeling. Capricorn isn't exactly emotional, of course, but I've noticed that people with this influence are more open about their insecurities because they're so aware of their physical, practical limitations. Besides some quirky neuroses here and there, usually from feeling like a "freak", Aquarian people don't really allow ourselves to go to that place of self-doubt as much because our ideals are more real than our earthly form in a way. So, yeah, the God complex thing can definitely be true, haha.

[Violets]

Interestingly, in terms of elements and signs, I don't feel the same way that I feel about planetary influences. I can't deal with an overabundance of water either, and I often keep my distance from Scorpio Suns in real life. However, I can deal with Pluto just fine (usually).

Regarding water or earth... The oddest thing is that people whose Pisces Suns are conjunct mine in real life are the most annoying, obnoxious, grating people for me personally (wth?). I guess my Virgo Moon just isn't having it?

I believe that my comfort with Saturn energy shines brightly when my Yod is in action, as Saturn is at the apex of that Yod. Neptune and Mercury get together to support Saturn in my chart, who discards his looming puritan side in exchange for the wise old teacher.

[Violets]

I just had the thought that Pluto seems to me to want to explore the catacombs, the Pompeii, to uncover and examine what is hidden and unknown. I'm not sure what the motivation driving that is, but Saturn seems unconcerned with these things, so long as the structures on top of them are sound and well built. Examining those things requires a lot of time and energy that could be put to better use for Saturn, perhaps.

(I have a lot of Mercury transits at the moment, so please pardon me for going on odd little spiels.)

[Ava]

Odd little spiels!❤️

But I think that's perfectly on point, Violets. It's true, Saturn is attributed with the creation of structure, and Pluto is tasked with demolition.

You got me thinking...I had a thread at LL called "The House of Stone and Light" where I posted pictures of churches that I found beautiful. Most of the pictures I started out with were simply the ruins of churches, with weeds or flowers growing inside (SN in Taurus, I'm a naturalist.) But that also reflects my own Saturn/Pluto, I think. In my chart, they're quintile. The readings vary so drastically I'm left confused, but the quintile is associated with talent, a sense of humor, and "cuteness" according to Jewel Mayberry. So I post aesthetically-wrecked churches, and it's charming or cuteness to me, but probably interpreted as sacrilegious or subtly confrontational by others. Meh, I didn't actually think about it too much; maybe there is a message of subtle confrontation there.

But truly, one of my favorite religious experiences happened in London, in a covert and run-down old synagogue that suffered bombing damage in WWII. The tour guide talked about the rabbi who watched over the church, how he was a great scholar with a huge heart, who gave all his money away to the homeless. The rabbi had a mattress, a lantern, and many books. That's all. The tour guide was crying while talking about him, and the sunlight shone down into the dim room through the windows in the ceiling, highlighting the dancing dust and the Hebrew writing that remained on the crumbling walls. The whole scene left a great impression on me and actually was the beginning of a turning point, setting the stage for my brief but intense religious phase in my 20s (Pluto in Sag, Saturn in Aries, conjunct my Jupiter, in my 9th.)

Anyway.....considering my Saturn/Pluto friendly aspect, perhaps that explains why I take such a congenial view of elegantly broken-down places of worship. Saturn wins because some walls are still upright; Pluto wins because it's mostly gone. A nice tie.

[Violets]

That sounds phenomenal, Ava. 💕💖

I also love seeing the types of structures you're talking about (in addition to all different types of abandoned places partly overrun by Nature).

Wow. 😍

[Ava]

the89freespirit

Thanks again! That is such a brilliant observation about the difference between Cap and Aqua. This here:

"Capricorn isn't exactly emotional, of course, but I've noticed that people with this influence are more open about their insecurities because they're so aware of their physical, practical limitations. Besides some quirky neuroses here and there, usually from feeling like a "freak", Aquarian people don't really allow ourselves to go to that place of self-doubt as much because our ideals are more real than our earthly form in a way. So, yeah, the God complex thing can definitely be true, haha."

I can relate to both because of Mercury in Aqua, pr sun in Aqua most of my life. If I'm presenting an idea that I consider "the Truth," I may treat it as an objective fact, while to others, my opinion is just subjective. So they may perceive the assurance as arrogant. Somehow that triggers me and makes me feel truly arrogant. LOL

I also have to constantly remind myself that "I'm okay, you're okay." I think Cap planets just suck the marrow out of whatever is most saturnine in modern social structures, internalizing that and reckoning with it. So failure becomes this ultra serious, life-or-death kind of drama, if only through our internal processing. I remember my parents being pleased with my good grades, and I was bewildered: "You mean there's another option?" My elders had all my attention, I really thought the whole idea of life was to copy them and fit into the system.

As Caps accumulate Saturn energy like magnets, we come to a tipping point where we are more Saturn than the system at large, and a schism often happens. Maybe we won't say anything, we'll keep it to ourselves because it could threaten our public standing if we broke with the status quo. But by the time of our Saturn Return, most Caps are progressed Aquas by then, and the Aqua version of Saturn also seems to kick in....the counterculture Saturn, the strong belief in freedom, in shedding outmoded and burdensome old ideas...I think this is when Cap starts to age in reverse.

And then we're more open and blunt about our insecurities or failings because we're operating by a different frame of reference at that point, we don't consider those failings in the same light as we did before. Oddly it's because we've come to value ourselves on our own terms, at the core, that we can treat other shortcomings like they don't matter too much anymore, and then embrace the flawed side of ourselves, become more whole and loving in generally ideally....in preparation for pr sun in Pisces.

I feel like I'm talking about Capricorn too much, tr Mercury Rx conjunct Saturn seems to keep me on a hamster wheel.

Hopping off but thanks for inspiring me to wonder some more.

[Ava]

Thanks, Violets! ❤️

I was thinking, you have Saturn/Pluto, too, and maybe those of us with these aspects have a greater appreciation for ruins? Just a passing thought....I guess there's no way to know.