Direct midpoints throughout the charts

[lumina]

I am going to copy myself - if Andrew Lloyd Webber can do it and get away with it, so can I.



I know we`ve probably all heard to use conjunction, opposition, square (and sometimes semisquare and sesisquare) with midpoints. And they may ALL be fitting. (for example I have Moon square Mercury/Pluto and Venus square Sun/Saturn - and yes I definitely think I feel it).



However if we are thinking a bit more closely about it, squares in this model are not real midpoints - they are aspects to midpoints, or actually some form of watered down midpoint themselves, as they are at the midpoint of a midpoint axis.

Confused?



What I mean is this.

in a circle there are always two midpoints, the near and the far one.



For my Sun on 26 Sagittarius and Saturn on 17 Cancer



the near midpoint: 6 Libra

the far midpoint: 6 Aries



my Venus is on 6 Capricorn, hence Venus is squaring the midpoint of my Sun/Saturn, and at the same time at the midpoint of that Sun/Saturn-axis (from 6 Libra-6 Aries) herself.





HOwever that is already like the 2nd level of midpoints already, and with the square to the original midpoint, even though these aspects are usually treated equal, I am doubtful they are. I mean a conjunction is NOT the same as a square, right? And if we have an aspect to a midpoint by square, that might have a bit of a different meaning (maybe instead of a sense of fusion, you feel like your being hit sideways by someone else`s planet; there is potentially more tension inherent in this, which does not need to be a bad thing.)





I disgress though, as I rather want to talk about direct midpoints; these are the ones made by conjunction or opposition (the near and far midpoints), and frankly the only REAL midpoints between planet, at least real direct midpoints.



Most astrologers claim that direct midpoints are "more meaningful" (I think they mean, they are more "noteable" ) than indirect ones (if there are squares and esp. semisquares or sesisquare to a midpoint).



Robert Hand in his book on astrology symbols was recommending to use at least the direct midpoints for a chart analysis, as they are "just as meaningful/potent as major aspects".

He uses the same orb as I like to do with direct midpoints which made me happy to see. lol

1,5° - in the case of direct midpoints I am a bit more generous, while usually I would cut at 1°; however of course the closer the midpoint, the more noteable it might be.



there are of course other ways that can make a direct midpoint potent, despite maybe not being in a very very small orb, for example if the planets that are creating the midpoint are in aspect to each other, or if they are angular in the chart, etc. stuff like that you know?

Planets that are prominent in a natal chart anyway, will carry this prominence to their midpoint pictures, too of course.







To name some other astrologers; Robert Blashke also only used direct midpoints; Ema Kurent also specifically mentions direct midpoints (astrologyrestored.com/2015/07/25/times-of-change-and-how-to-predict-them-by-ema-kurent/)

- btw a wonderful article I have to still apply to my own life.



David Cochrane also extensively uses or mentions direct midpoints.





Esp. in the case of Cochrane and Blashke, there is a particular reason they always refer to direct midpoints, because it is only the direct midpoints that happen as a result of symmetrical aspectfigures like Grand trine, minor triangle, Kite, T-square, Grand Cross, Yod etc. with tight orbs, and of course also strenghten the aspectfigure, and indicating a lot how the energy flows or is going to be expressed; some might even have several midpoint pictures. Of course that only happens if the orbs are reasonably tight; but this "focus of energy" - I imagine midpoint-pictures like a laserbeam - might explain why some aspect figures seem to be really on fire, while others seem to be more of the lazy kind, and manifest more gradually, instead of all corners being activated simultaneously.









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Anyway a long sermon again, but I wanted to share my views and thoughts on these midpoints.



And (despite it being hard for me to ignore all the nice squares to midpoints) want to focus on direct midpoints in my chart, and curious about your direct midpoints (and if they are happening between planets that are in aspect).



BTW I know midpoint astrologers usually treat ASC-DESC as an axis and MC-IC as well and do not differentiate, but if I focus on direct midpoints, the difference might become important.



Because astro.com will show you something like



Venus square Pluto/MC, which looks like an indirect midpoint, however at the same time this is also a direct midpoint, as Venus will be conjunct or opposite Pluto/IC, and therefore more identified with the IC-part of the personality.

I think this DOES make a difference!





For example in my own chart I have:

Sun square Saturn/ASC



But it really means that



Sun opposes Saturn/DESC

this figure seems to be more indicative of my form of relating than really expressing myself in a ME-ME sense





DESC is on 7 Gemini

Saturn on 17 Cancer



Sun on 26 Sag



The midpoint between 7 Gemini and 17 Cancer is: 27 Gemini, and hence opposing my Sun





In my case this is emphasizing an underlying 9th harmonic pattern, as



Saturn novile DESC

Saturn quadranovile Sun

DESC quadranovile Sun





- in a second step I think this might also be explaining subtle differences in how midpoints are manifesting. If there is an aspect figure underlying it (that always means a certain harmonic is emphasized), the midpoint picture might reflect that harmonic.



So a Sun = Saturn/DESC resonating with a 3rd or 9th harmonic might be inherently more "pleasant", but maybe also calmer and more at ease, than if the the midpoint picture was created because of the existence of a T-square, like in P`s case actually; he has the complementing picture of



Sun = Saturn/ASC



But in his case it is a 4th harmonic pattern, a T-square, as



Saturn opposes ASC, both are squaring Sun



(that Sun is on the MC even), well what can I say? The man is a workaholic!





Just a few thoughts...

[Ava]

Hmmm....

Theoretically I'm on board - direct midpoints are most potent.

I don't know what to make of my experiences, how to organize them. The first example that comes to mind is my

Saturn (0° Leo) = moon/Neptune midpoint (0° Aqua)

It's a crucial one because it involves the dispositors of my sun and moon, and time and time again, this axis has been active in key events, or turning points in my destiny, even.

Mars @ 29 Cancer is transiting conjunct my Saturn now, and look, Fate is asking me to address this midpoint picture.

But anyway, I got married with transiting Venus-Saturn @ 2° Taurus, squaring this midpoint axis.

I have moon-Mars mp and Mercury-Saturn mp overlapping around 1° Taurus, so that could be chalked up to a direct midpoint hit. But all things considered I think all the midpoint hits are about equally significant.

[lumina]

Well, a square from a transiting planet is a strongly activating factor. It`s sort of really pumping up the aspect/ planet in the natal with energy, however I wouldn`t understimate esp. Moon/Mars-mp either! The most primal and passionate midpoint of all!


Also I am not saying that squares to midpoints do not have any effect - what I am saying is that I want to focus on direct ones for a first step, as they are like conjunctions (if we compare it to aspects) and there is that sense of fusion. in your case your Saturn ALWAYS carries the Moon/Neptune-picture along with it, and hence is a much more imaginative, sensitive, but potentially also depressed Saturn than for example my own Saturn, which has as only midpoint picture tied to it Uranus/IC, that will be quite different.

In your case Moon is square Neptune in your chart anyway, (and of course Moon is in Pisces), so the Moon/Neptune-symbolism is strong and emphasized in your natal anyway, however, here it shows that it is inseparably tied to or intervowen with Saturn, so not a free flowing, happily flowating into the realm of impossibility and delusion possibly Moon-Neptune, but it sort of has to always report back to Saturn: are my fantasies realistic? Can I make them work in some way at least?

Sometimes SAturn might depress those rich feelings and imaginations and dreams, and at other times this talent for seeing beyond the borders of "reality" (as in physical reality) can expand Saturn`s horizon even.
It`s not easy though, as I said, Moon is squaring Neptune - so you probably will have the tendency like a pendulum to swing from one extreme to another. Actually it is through Saturn that you might find the best balance, after all he is on the midpoint.


With squares to midpoints this might be different, actually potentially squares might break up any sense of balancing point there, they will just blindside you, you don`t see them coming, and baff they are there and you got to deal with them, which might actually be especially prominent if someone else`s planet activates your midpoint.

For example P`s Pluto is squaring my Sun/Moon-mp by about 7 minutes. No I certainly did not see THIS coming. lol


Well my Moon is squaring his Venus/Mars-mp (and Venus/Jupiter-mp) - for him the midpoints are on the Scorpio-Taurus-axis, my Moon is in Aquarius. I think you can almost taste (mentally) the inherent tension in this one, right?

Interestingly enough my nameasteroid in my own chart is in Taurus on his Venus/Mars-mp, and his Venus/Eros- mp is very closely conjunct my Moon (as is his Sun/Ceres and Moon/Ceres-mp if I don`t mis-remember it).

I suppose there is a reason why somehow whenever we meet there is some transiting planet or even angle occupying those 15-19 degrees of fixed signs, which are of course lightening up all of these mentioned things. Sometimes by conjunction/Opposition, sometimes by square. (well if it is conjunct/ opposition his Venus/Mars-mp it will be square my Moon and vice versa).


But what I really was talking about was direct midpoints in the natal chart, as they are most closely aligned with our identity/ personality, shaping the planet in question, colouring it, like a conjuncting planet would.

And once we`ve understood what it means, of course we can branch out from there and see what is probably going to hit us sideways on our way (Usually taking this whole direct midpoint with us) and pushing us into more evolvement. But it would be good to know what it is we are going to evolve and develope and modify and change.

[Ava]

Ah, thank you for that analysis, it's like therapy. All so accurate.

"For example P`s Pluto is squaring my Sun/Moon-mp by about 7 minutes. No I certainly did not see THIS coming. lol"

LOL

Funny, my son's moon squares my sun/moon midpoint. I wasn't in labor with him for long, so I couldn't even believe it when he arrived so quickly. The first thing I ever said to him was: "Already??" heheheh didn't see him coming that fast.

"Well my Moon is squaring his Venus/Mars-mp (and Venus/Jupiter-mp) - for him the midpoints are on the Scorpio-Taurus-axis, my Moon is in Aquarius. I think you can almost taste (mentally) the inherent tension in this one, right?"

Wow! YES

"I suppose there is a reason why somehow whenever we meet there is some transiting planet or even angle occupying those 15-19 degrees of fixed signs, which are of course lightening up all of these mentioned things."

It's actually something I've come to expect, seeing those degrees when things happen.

"But what I really was talking about was direct midpoints in the natal chart, as they are most closely aligned with our identity/ personality, shaping the planet in question, colouring it, like a conjuncting planet would."

I see what you mean.

Well in my case, the Saturn = moon/Neptune is part of a larger "dance" between these three planets, but it's the most straightforward expression of their interconnection, I think. Made me happy to see it, as it brought things together.

john-sandbach.blogspot.com/2010/11/planets-activating-moonneptune-midpoint.html

[lumina]

Ava

" "Already??" heheheh didn't see him coming that fast. "
Yes, I imagine it a bit like a car-crash, like a "Where did you come from all at once?"



"Wow! YES "
I suppose he must sort of like it though. After all he was with a woman for about 7 years whose Sun was squaring his Venus/Mars and Venus/Jupiter-mp, though her Sun was out of orb for being conjunct his Venus/Eros, Sun/Ceres and Moon/Ceres.

Well he eventually picked (or was picked by - who really knows?) a girl with her nodal axis right on his Venus/Mars and Venus/Jupiter-mp and interestingly enough her name in her own chart is just one minute off my Moon. lol
(my name asteroid in my chart on the other hand is on her NN, and hence also falling onto his Venus/Mars and Venus/Jupiter-mp axis).


anyway his midpoints gathered around the fixed signs are like this:


Juno/Eros 18°00 Taurus
Juno/Ceri 18°25 Taurus

Uranus/Psyche 17°13 Scorpio
Venus/Amor 17°29 Scorpio
Venus/Jupiter 18°03 Scorpio
Venus/Mars 18°31 Scorpio

Juno/Amor 18°22 Leo
Juno/Jupiter 18°55 Leo

Sun/Ceres 17°00 Aqua
Venus/Eros 17°08 Aqua
Venus/Ceri 17°33 Aqua
Ceres/MC 17°40 Aqua (Ceres /IC on 17°40 Taurus)
Moon/Ceres 17°51 Aqua



Curiously enough our talk on friday happened approximately (about 5 minutes difference) at the same time as he decided to sneak up on my on saturday, just 24 hours apart. lol
Which means that the ASC`s were roughly the same - I used for the saturday time the approximate date I got aware of him,, it is really an estimation, but I seem to have gotten quite good at those. Of course I have no clue how long he`s been standing there already.

Anyway for friday that gives an event ASC of 14 Aquarius (of course Aqua is a quick rising sign so at the end of it it might have passed already 2 or 3 degrees).

For saturday, however it gave an ASC of 17-18 Aquarius, which certainly made me laugh a bit.

Anyway on both days Tr Mercury was exactly on the DESC - just on saturday it had been also tightly opposing my Moon.
And also on both days Tr Venus was exactly on the IC - on friday it had been on 10 Gemini, and hence conjunct my SN exact, with the MC falling onto my Neptune-NN, his Mercury and our first meeting ASC.

on saturday it was already on 12 Gemini, I suppose still in orb, but actually more closely aligned with my asteroid Kaali on 12 Gemini, which I find funny somehow. lol and our first meeting chart`s true Lilith was on 12 Sag; on both dates Venus-IC was definitely in orb for conjunction our composite 5th house Jupiter on 11 Gemini.


But anyway so this time it was Tr Mercury (and ASC-DESC) that had the mid-fixed-sign-connection. It is usually Mercury or Venus (sometimes along with an angle or other planet, not always the so called good ones, for example on that concert when I apparently drove him crazy, it was a Venus-Saturn-opposition running along 18 Taurus-Scorpio)


On the concert when he was sort of "stalking" me, well let`s call it "observing through a cafe window", that sounds a bit nicer, it was Mercury, but on 19 Aqua.



When he was apparently feeling the need to stroke my arm to emphasize the words he didn`t say, it was

IC 19 Aqua
his name almost 17 Aqua

Eros 18 Taurus


so that was a rather unusual alignment in that Mercury-Venus were missing from the picture.
Also on that first workshop with the "Butterflies don`t cry" moment,t here weren`t Mercury and Venus involved either, but Tr Moon was on about 15 Leo I think.

and the Banana-bread- moment did not fit into this pattern either, though Tr ASC was on 23 Scorpio and hence exactly on his natal Uranus, and I suppose it showed.



"Well in my case, the Saturn = moon/Neptune is part of a larger "dance" between these three planets, but it's the most straightforward expression of their interconnection, I think. Made me happy to see it, as it brought things together. "
Yes that is how I see midpoints, too, and of course the larger dance makes it all the more important

"john-sandbach.blogspot.com/2010/11/planets-activating-moonneptune-midpoint.html"
I think it fits quite well.
Also his interpretations are better for natal I think. The other ones are always so fatalistic (though often still fitting, except for some involving Saturn and Neptune - those are just too gloomy and onesided in their gloom and doom) and event oriented.


BTW I find it interesting that one of the tighter midpoints in my chart is Venus conjunct Jupiter/Uranus by just 10 minutes of arc - it is certainly not a midpoint I would have associated with myself. lol
But in this case I think it makes sense to still have a good grasp of what Venus is about in the natal chart and in my chart she is in Capricorn, she doesn`t lose that nature just because the Jupiter/Uranus-mp is there, too, in fact Venus is widely sextile Jupiter and Uranus, which are just not trine anymore (the orb would be 10 degrees), but it seems my Venus pulls those two energies together, but I am sure the expression is coloured through that Capricornian/Saturnian Venus-background.

Though I guess I am somewhat unusual when it comes to love and those things. lol


Sandbachs interpretation is this:

"To fall in love very suddenly or quickly, but possibly to fall out of it just as swiftly. A love of anything speculative and/or experimental. To be drawn to people who are extremely independent. To love anything or anyone who has about them an exuberant freedom."


I actually think I do fall in love very suddenly, I jsut spend many years to deny it. HOwever the falling out of love is not something that is easy to accomplish for me, unless I simply get bored, but then it cannot have been love in the first place, but some weird delusion, right? a misunderstanding.

But yes I do love independence and especially "anyone who has about them an exuberant freedom", and carefreeness. I love that, as it seems to remind me of that side of me, that often gets buried a little under all the SAturn-Pluto business my Venus is dabbling in.

[Ava]

Hi lumina !

Yeah, so many examples of that mid-degree fixed sign energy get sparked with you two. I wasn't imagining it.

And you inspire me to take a closer look at my midpoints. I agree with you completely about Sandbach, it's easier to apply these to the natal because we can see how we've handled it. For instance, moon-Neptune says: "Strange or undiagnosable health problems caused by taking on negative psychic energy." With Saturn on the mp: "Feeling burdened by the feelings of others. To be oppressed by one's own psychic sensitivity."

A few years ago I went to see a health counselor who looks at patients' blood under a microscope. Up close there was a red line on this blood cell she focused on, and she said that was unusual but it indicates a serious need for energy cleansing and energy work. Fits my midpoint picture so exactly, doesn't it? But I'm not hopeless, in fact I am always (or usually) trying to improve my energy. It would be much better for Saturn to serve as a storehouse of GOOD energy. Just takes me a long time to achieve this objective, because it's Saturn.

Thanks for explaining your Venus = Jupiter/Uranus, you make perfect sense.

Well the only other direct midpoint I can think of in my chart is moon = Saturn/Uranus, as if I really needed that.

john-sandbach.blogspot.com/2010/12/planets-activating-saturnuranus.html

"Moon: A person who is highly sensitive to others having negative reactions to their individuality and uniqueness. A desire to let go of emotional insecurities, but a fear of doing so."

That's a weird reading. "Fear of letting go of emotional insecurities." I don't feel emotionally insecure. I feel emotionless.

Nah just kidding but I do need therapy....blocked heart chakra or something.

Seems all my direct midpoint pictures are gloomy ones but what do I expect when my chart is full of t-squares.