Draconic charts

[lumina]

Ava

btw I meant to ask, which Node do you use for the calculation of Draconic charts, the true Node or the mean Node?

I´ve read different take on this, for example Forrest favours the mean Node, others seem to favour the True Node. 
I`ve always used the true Node, but I was surprised when I checked the mean Node in progressions and the nodal return how well it matched the timeframe of "turning points". I suppose though the true node did so, too. 

Anyway just wanted to know what you are using?

[Ava]

Hi lumina

I use true node.

What is the argument for mean node?

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"I`ve always used the true Node, but I was surprised when I checked the mean Node in progressions and the nodal return how well it matched the timeframe of "turning points". I suppose though the true node did so, too."

I've mentioned this example before...

20.00 Scorpio, my true node
18.57 Scorpio, mean node
18.45 Scorpio, pr true node when my mother died
18.10 Scorpio, pr mean node then
18.51 Scorpio, transiting Pluto then

4H Scorpio NN conjunct tr Pluto, in partile trine to 8H Pisces moon...well maybe it's the exactness of it all that resulted in such a literal result of moon/Scorpio/Pluto. From that angle I'm tempted to say the mean node has more sway.

But for several years my mean and progressed true node were on the same degree, and a lot can happen then (many turning points).

My progressed true node was at 18.12 Scorpio when I got married, almost 9 years after my mother died.

[lumina]

You mean, except that it works? lol
(not my perspective - I`ve always used true Node myself).

however, it seems to me that mean Lilith works very well on the other hand.


Well I`ve seen or heard those very different takes on it by Steven Forrest and David Cochrane.

www.forrestastrology.com/blogs/astrology/mean-nodes-vs-true-nodes





I am more inclined to Cochrane`s view here, so I guess I`ll stay with the true Node, but probably will re-incorporate mean Lilith.

[lumina]

Jun 22, 2017 4:16:58 GMT Ava said:

Interestingly from that I would have said the true Node had more sway, just look how Close that conjunction is!

(the one between Tr Pluto and pr NN)

[Ava]

lumina

"Interestingly from that I would have said the true Node had more sway, just look how Close that conjunction is!

(the one between Tr Pluto and pr NN)"

18.57 Scorpio, mean node
18.45 Scorpio, pr true node when my mother died

18.51 Scorpio, transiting Pluto then

It's really a stalemate.......tr Pluto equidistant from mean node and pr NN.

Thanks for the video, I'll try and watch it later and look at more charts.

[lumina]

Ava ,

yes, absolutely stalemate! Which doesn`t really help me with that quesion. mean or true?

[Ava]

K, I've watched the video and read the article (haha they both refer to themselves as "nerds"), and I've looked at a lot of charts.

Now I have a bunch of theories, like perhaps the true node indicates one thing, the mean node indicates another...pr node shows another. Maybe we just don't know yet and should leave it a blank space.

But if we consider that the true node's wobble is caused by the moon's gravity...maybe the true node is more emotional and "moonish" than the mean node? I have some anecdotes to back that up...for instance, when my father died, transiting true node was closer to my moon than tr mean node (though both were conjunct my moon).

My mother died with tr NN conjunct my progressed sun, square her nodes:

0.59 Aqua, my pr sun...conjunct my moon/Neptune midpoint
0.21 Aqua, transiting mean node
0.03 Scorpio, her pr mean node

28.58 Cap, transiting true node
29.33 Libra, her pr true node
(29.34 Cancer, my pr Saturn...28.55 Aries, her pr Saturn)

Maybe in that case I could say that the true node is about endings (end of the signs) and the mean node is about beginnings (beginnings of signs). In my case, I just began life as a pr Aqua sun, while her energy is just at the beginning of Scorpio, as if she is entering the realm of death, though of course it's not usually so literal. 

And there the true node also would be more keyed to emotions (lamenting the end of things and lingering on the past) while the mean node is moving onto the next thing, forward-minded.

However in my progressed composite with my mother for the day she died, the mean and true nodes are very tightly conjunct (0.03° orb). Same with my parents....their pr comp mean and true nodes are tightly conjunct (0.06° orb).

So then I started to wonder if there is a special significance when the mean and true nodes are conjunct. My husband has them on the same degree natally; our progressed composite for our wedding day has the mean and true nodes conjunct, right on his natal conjunction (same degree). 

Every time I start going into examples I find so many compelling things that I get overwhelmed.

Paralysis by overanalysis.

One last thing, my parents' progressed composite sun, when my mother died, was at 20.52 Scorpio, conjunct my true node @ 20.00 Scorpio. Their pr comp Saturn @ 20.34 Aqua.

That kind of matches what I was saying about true-node = endings. Because their composite Saturn @ 18 Aqua is square my mean node @ 18 Scorpio. My beginning as a person matching their beginning as a couple (their regular composite, I mean...not the progressed composite, which implies a history.)  

Interesting that they had a Capricorn child with this transit, tr NN square their comp Saturn.....and my Saturn also squares my mother's NN. Well when I was born, her pr mean node @ 0.51 Scorpio squared my Saturn @ 0.36 Leo pretty exactly. My Saturn is Rx so it was tracking square to her progressed nodes and ended up only 0.01° square to her pr true node at the end, as I said above. 

But that beginning/ending, mean/true theory might be totally useless wordplay, or a theme particular to my own life. 

I dunno, all I know is that astrology is real.  

[lumina]

Ava

thank you. No, no useless wordplay, though even with your observations I don´t think that it can be distributed like that. I think the nodes can be about both, beginnings and endings, and often they are interdependent.

Anyway after watching Cochrane`s Video again, it now seems to me pretty clear, that only the true Node is, well, true, but thank you for looking up all of this and sharing your thoughts with me.

One Thing is pretty clear, no matter if mean or true, the nodes Play an important role in important life Events, which is actually rather Logical, considering they are the ones determinine the eclipses, and those are about beginnings and endings, so the Observation you made on the nodes is pretty accurate I think, just that I don´t think it can be distributed to mean or true Node prinicipally.

[Ava]

^ Fair enough

Just saw this - Alec Baldwin and his wife:

27.34 Libra, her tropical Mars
28.29 Libra, his tropical Jupiter
29.43 Libra, her draconic sun (noon chart)
1.14 Scorpio, his true NN
1.53 Scorpio, her tropical Pluto
2.29 Scorpio, his mean NN

The synastry becomes less significant there, with mean node.

14.14 Gemini, her mean node
15.36 Gemini, her true node
12.09 Virgo, his draconic sun (noon chart)

Here the synastry becomes more significant using mean node. 

Either way, +1 for draconic charts.....his draco sun squaring her nodes, her draco sun conjunct his NN. 

29 Aqua, composite sun
23 Aqua, composite SN
27 Scorpio, composite Jupiter

 

[lumina]

I am confused now, what, now? more or less significant? you stated both?

[Ava]

Jun 29, 2017 17:11:26 GMT lumina said:

I am confused now, what, now? more or less significant? you stated both?

Mm hmm...both.

My conclusion is tending towards, "it's inconclusive." That's what I meant to show. Same couple, same result, yet in one aspect the mean node is tighter and in another aspect, the true node is.  

So we've seen astrologers debate this based on astronomy, but it seems impossible to gather proof to support either assertion, because the nodes are so close. In any case, we can't tell if it's one node getting triggered exactly, or the other node triggered, with a bit of orb. 

With the Baldwins, I was just rummaging through charts, found that, and decided to post it here. It's one case where a couple ended up together despite difference in age, cultural background, social position, etc. So it looks a bit like fate, like something draconic, and as you said:

"One Thing is pretty clear, no matter if mean or true, the nodes Play an important role in important life Events"