9th harmonic chart - relationships

[lumina]

Ava posted this link in another thread, and that caught my attention


"but I have found that there is often a very strong resonance between the charts of people we are attracted to and our 9th harmonic."
9th harmonic


I have never looked at it this way curiously enough, but was considering checking my parents 9th harmonic charts. 

[lumina]

my Mom`s 9th harmonic in resonance with Dad`s natal
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her 9th ASC in Libra - his n Mars in Libra

her 9th MC 18 Virgo, her 9th Moon 15 Virgo, her 9th NN 16 Virgo:
his n ASC-Saturn on 18 Virgo

her 9th Sun 2 Leo:
his n Sun 5 Aquarius in 5th house (Leo-symbolism)

her 9th Venus 13 Gemini widely opposing 9th Saturn on 20 Sag:
he has got Saturn on the ASC, so the SAturn-factor fits:
his n MC is on 14 Gemini, too


her 9th Mars on 4 Taurus opposing 9th Uranus on 5 Scorpio:
his n Moon is on 2 Taurus
he`s got a stellium in Aquarius (Sun, Venus, Jupiter, with Venus-Jupiter opposing Pluto) and Uranus is elevated, though not conjunct MC

Saturn rules her DESC, and Mercury rules his ASC.
her 9th Saturn 20 Sag
his 9th Mercury - Saturn 19 Gemini
his 9th Mars 23 Sag



my Dad`s 9th harmonic in resonance with Mom`s natal
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his 9th ASC 13 Gemini does not relate to her natal so much, but it is conjunct her 9th Venus on 13 Gemini (and in HIS natal his Juno-IC are placed on the 9th DESC)


his 9th Sun 17 Scorpio
her Sun is in Scorpio, though not conjunct , still she definitely exhibits Scorpio traits


his 9th Moon 12 Capricorn opposite 9th Uranus 15 Cancer:
in her natal she has Uranus conjunct her Cancer-ASC on 12 or 13 Cancer. lol


his 9th Venus on 6 Aqua conjunct 9th Eros on 6 Aqua conjunct 9th MC on 7 Aqua:
Her Venus-Mars-conjunction is sextile her Uranus natally, and her 9th Psyche is on 4 Aqua (so conjunct his 9th Eros. lol) plus her 9th Sun on 2 Leo is opposite (polarities seem to work, too)
She`s got a strong Uranus anyway, with it being conjunct her ASC, so she definitely qualifies for the Aqua/Uranus-bit


his DESC-ruler is Neptune, and
9th Neptune 6 PIsces opposing 9th Pluto 5 Virgo
so his marriage partner would also have Plutonic characteristics and possibly Virgoan one, which she qualifies to for as well (Sun in Scorpio, Moon in Virgo)

his 9th Neptune is also conjunct her natal NN-MC-conjunction on about 8 Pisces I think.

his 9th Juno on 9 Scorpio:
her n Sun on 3 Scorpio, not quite conjunct, but the sign resonates.


Well I do think it probably is rare to find that much resonance. lol

[Deleted]

lumina , because there is a lot to consider amongst various charts and their comaparisons with the natal: composites, synastries, 9th harmonic -  is it poosible to rate these in order of importance? Or do you see these giving the same messages in whichever form? Has one been more revealing that the other?

[lumina]

The basic stuff, is found in the trinity of natal, synastry and composite. Those need to be considered in relation to each other.

The other stuff is specialities. Though can be rather interesting. But without a grasp of natal, synastry and ocmposite in relation to each other, most people will get lost in too many isolated details.
We cannot separate synastry or composite from the natals though, as these are what constitutes all these charts, they are the egg (or the hen?)

[lumina]

Ava,

wow! OUR 9th harmonic synastry must be on fire, too!!!!


BTW I do feel rather uncomfortable comparing 9th harmonic chart to natal placement, except maybe checking how the natal echoes the 9th placements and aspects.

The reason for this is that really the 9th harmonic chart is just highlighting this aspect family, and comparing it back to the natal is a bit, well it might make sense symbolically maybe, but it`s really comparing apples with oranges.


But as far as I understood it most of those mentioned planets are in 9th harmonic (except your Sun, right?)

"22 Taurus sun (conjunct my husband's 9th harmonic SN and my natal SN) "
23 Scorpio Sun for me, so right on your Sun-MC

24 Leo Jupiter
24 Aqua Mars
25 Aqua Venus
(ahh you want to chase me? ROFL, but I LOVE that, actually I just had a tiny bit of a peek at the transits, and in the transits of course in 9th harmonic chart Jupiter was on 25 Aquarius on monday, and I still have not managed to stop gaping at this with open mouth. lol)



"Additionally I have:
29 Taurus Venus
29 Leo Uranus"
my ASC on 1 or 2 Gemini and my Juno-SAturn on 2 Sag are very certainly in orb.
In fact so far our overlays are so exact, 1 degree in the 9th harmonic chart is I believe about 7 minutes only in the natal chart (in terms of conjunctions in the 9th harmonic chart it means we have a novile, binovile, trine or quadranovile in our normal natal chart by a ridiculously small orb. lol)



"My husband has, in the 9th harmonic:
22 Scorpio NN (conjunct his natal Vertex and my 20 Scorpio NN)
24 Sag Pluto
26 Aqua Venus"

21 Sag Pluto here
and 23 Gemini NN

HOw funny that my Sun is on your husband`s NN and that we have a Venus-Venus-conjunction. Is his Venus on 6-7 Virgo maybe? That would mean they are trine.
Of course I do not even know your husband, but your synastry with him is hot and well I guess compulsive, hopefully in a good way, it is the 9th harmonic after all. There is a greater purpose to it.




Also, 9th harmonic:
My Pluto 15 Cap (on my sun)
My Mercury 15 Scorpio
His Mercury 16 Cap
His Mars 14 Scorpio

Very very lively discussions I suppose. unless you seethe in silence.
Of course it is either very constructive and profound exchange of thoughts or it is a bit too volatile and angry.

BTW my Mercury is on 15 Scorpio too
my MC is on 14 Scorpio
my Uranus is on 12 Cancer


Grand finale, if 3 degree orbs count -- sun/moon DW:
Of course they do!!!!!

It`s not even half a degree in the natal chart!

My sun 22 Taurus
His moon 19 Scorpio
My moon 13 Sag
His sun 10 Gemini

Wow! Amazing. Such a strong alignment of Sun and Moon in the marriage chart.

[Violets]

I'm late to the party, I posted our charts in the other thread. 😑

[lumina]

Apr 28, 2017 18:11:15 GMT Violets said:

I'm late to the party, I posted our charts in the other thread. 😑

I replied there. Going to post my and P`s chart here though. 

[lumina]

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[lumina]

Oh we have a vertex-NN-conjunction as well. Weird, I did not know that when I was interpreting yours, Violets

[Violets]

I'm sorry I can't contribute much here, guys (ladies). I'm trying to at least compare the harmonics charts, but then I have to toggle back and forth between tabs or threads, which is too much for my Mercury fried brain to deal with, hahaha.

Also, you both know so much more about astrology than I do, I'm just going to sit here and try to learn something.

[Ava]

LOL

I still don't understand much.

[FruityLlama]

I dont quite understand but ill post my 9th harmonic synastry here because itll be easier to look at when theyre on the same page !

[FruityLlama]

We have axis conjunctions in this synastry too, plus a wode sun-vertex conjunction.
His harmonic moon is exactly opposite my natal sun.
My 9thHarm. stellium in leo probably does something to his natal sun, i think its mercury that conjuncts it.
Uranus-Juno conj. I think too. I thiiiink we have this in natal synastry too, quite a tight conjunction or something.
Venus-Venus conjunction in 9th synastry!

[lumina]

@ Faith,


"I love the sun-sun opposition and our exact Mercury-Mercury conjunction. But you knew that already, thanks to that conjunction. "
Of course I did.

I love that as well, and interestingly last monday, Tr Uranus (9th harmonic transit) was on 15 Scorpio right on both our Mercuries and my MC. Which means that Tr Uranus must be either novile, trine, binovile or quadranovile or conjunct our natal Mercuries.
In my case it was a near to exact trine of Tr Uranus to Mercury with only 2 minute of orb.
In your case I think it must have been binovile your Mercury?




"but I assumed John Sandbach was condoning mixing 9th & natals with this comment: "
Yes he certainly does. But that doesn`t mean I will follow that.

*sighs* I am not totally decided on this. I just think if we do compare natals to harmonic charts we need to be aware of WHAT we are doing, and if we are okay with that, then by all means do it (though whenever I do this, everything inside me is acting up against it, like when you know you are heading into a wrong direction. It`s just my personal astrological instinct that is crying alarm, and it does so by reducing my wanting to even look at the charts, it`s like it all suddenly becomes foggy and actually like looking at an illusion/ hallucination, something that does not feel real. It`s just my internal response of course, and occasionally I am doing the comparison to natal, but it`s like a spark is being dimmed and suffocated, as it feels inside).



However for those who want to compare those, just be aware of what the harmonic charts are.

the 9th harmonic charts are all your natal placements multiplied by 9 (and for mathematical reason every natal aspect that is a conjunction, novile, trine, binovile or quadranovile, would show as conjunction in that chart; every sextile for example would appear as opposition in that chart and so on).

So harmonic charts are nothing but an easier way to see your natal charts aspects through the magnifying glass of 9th harmonic aspects.

However it is only the aspects that are being shown through a magnifying glass.

It is however not a real chart, like your natal chart. Not a map of the sky at any point in time. It is not even a midpoint chart like the composite is.

The signplacements are just used as helpful tools to identify the aspects, but the planets are not really in that or this sign.

So what this sais is that the 9 harmonic chart is a real chart in terms of highlighting aspects relationships between planets; but when it comes to sign background or houses it`s a completely symbolical chart, that has never existed.


Of course if we are okay with that fact that it is purely symbolical (not even the interpretation - that is always symbolical in astrology- but the calculation itself), then of course we can compare the harmonics to the natal which is the 1st harmonic chart btw.


As I said I probably will not do it, as it feels like trying to force something. It`s my feeling though, if you don´t feel like it, just compare those, just I probably will not add to the discussion, because it just feels wrong to me. AT least today, maybe it will feel right some other day, I tend to be a bit see-sawing in this regard, but I always end up feeling restless and unbalanced when I try to push the 9th harmonic and 1st harmonic together in terms of overlays.
And I guess I need to honour my instinct.






" In the case of my 9th harmonic Pluto exactly on my sun, it's a bit hard to dismiss. "
Well some things will always come up though. Maybe it`s something, maybe not. I don`t know.
All I know is that 9th harmonic Pluto on your Sun is the overlay of a purely symbolical blowing up of natal chart, overlayed onto the existing natal chart. Maybe it means something, could be yes. In sort of reflection/ resonance maybe.

What it does NOT mean though, is that there is an existing 9th harmonic relationship between Pluto and Sun in your natal (had the Pluto conjunct your Sun within 9th harmonic, then there would have been a novile-family-aspect in your natal, with your 9th harm Pluto on your Sun that is not the case, or not necessarily though).






" his Venus is at 6 Virgo. How could you tell?"
Because for them to be THAT closely conjunct in the 9th harmonic synastry, there had to be a partile aspect from the novile series between our charts, and I remember I think you mentioned his Venus was in Virgo, so it had to be a trine, and since my Venus is 6 Capricorn, his had to be at 6 Virgo.

It could of course also had been on 16 Aquarius, then it would have been novile my Venus for instance, etc.



"nd we have Scorpio NN-Mercury-Neptune in composite so maybe it's just us. "
Amazing, Well we have the MErcury-Neptune in composite, too, though not on the NN (sextile Pluto and Pallas though and making a minor triangle), but having it in scorpio seems extra probing.

[lumina]

"You and P have Venus/Venus opposition, with your Venus on his ASC. So sweet! "
it`s actually a pretty big thing, and maybe the reason for the connection between us as seen in our 9th harmonic chart.

My Venus on his ASC opposing his Venus and both squaring my Sun; his Saturn is in orb for conjunct his own Venus, and actually also in orb for opposing my Venus, but out of orb for the square to Sun. While Saturn is part of the package, it is not in the centre, the emphasis seems to be clearly on my Venus to his Venus-ASC.

Interestingly enough last monday this was being activated.


my Venus 25 Aqua
(my Sun 23 Scorpio)

his ASC 26 Aqua
his Venus 23 Leo

Tr Jupiter 25 Aqua

- well it did shock me a bit to see just how exact Tr Jupiter actually was falling onto the Venus (mine)-ASC (his) conjunction.
It means there must have been a really really REALLY tight 9th harmonic aspect of Tr Jupiter to my Venus and his ASC.


In fact it was this:
Tr Jupiter binovile my Venus with 2 minutes orb
Tr Jupiter quadranovile his ASC with 4 minutes orb



Not major aspects of course, but very tight 9th harmonic ones.




"Do you look at the signs with these or just the aspects?"
At the aspects - though in a symbolical way the signplacements might have their validity, I am just not certain about this. I am certain about the aspects though, so that is what I rely on. The signs are more a bit like guesswork. Maybe it is valid, maybe not. I just don´t know.



"I'm tempted to say that with your Jupiter conjunct his Neptune in Libra"
Interesting. I never even payed aattention to my Jupiter conjunct his Neptune, but you are of course right, it is still in orb.
It´s actually a binovile of under one degree of his Sag Neptune to my Pisces-Jupiter. I will keep that in mind, especially since his Jupiter squares my Neptune in the natal, which comes up as a square in the 9th harmonic chart as well, from his 1 degree Aries Jupiter to my 29 degree Gemini Neptune.
Maybe a tad overidealistic? lol




" Also, your nodes complete a cardinal grand cross with his Jupiter-Neptune opposition, which is a nice illustration of the effect he's had on your evolution towards greater and more conscious feeling (NN in Cancer)."
Yes I think that is important. Also, what makes it a bit complicated is the presence of my Chiron as well, which is conjunct his Neptune (in natal this aspect comes up as exact trine). And my Ceres is rather widely on his Neptune as well (binovile just under 1 degree in natal). My Ceres is novile my Chiron in my natal apparently.

The pure 9th harmonic aspect here is the combination of his Neptune to my Chiron-Ceres of course (the other planets come into this through other aspects, that will be different minor aspects, not from the 9th harmonic,but of course they have their merits as well).

I suppose his Neptune on my Chiron-Ceres could be potentially quite soothing and healing for my physical nurturing or nurturing the physical (9th harmonic is usually more about harmony and flowingness, that is why I emphasis the healing part. After all the 9th harmonic is a higher version of the trine aspect, embedding the nature of the trine into a greater context of community).

Since this Neptune-Chiron-Ceres is squaring my nodal axis, it seems to me as if that was a skipped step for me (physical nurturing and in a healing way, it it quite a touch-oriented combo btw), at least in context of the 9th harmonic chart. So learning to give it a positive expression?
Interestingly enough Ceres is squaring my nodal axis in the natal chart as well, so the themes of nurturing, caring, motherhood, and possibly everything having to do with food, cooking, baking. lol IS a skipped step for me anyway.



This complex was ALSO being activated on monday as Tr Moon was on 3 Cancer (9th harmonic Moon of course), and falling onto my Neptune-NN, and actually conjunct his PRiapus, which falls onto my NN as well.
I guess it has something to do with finding the right balance. Priapus is not known for being a very balanced one. lol Well let`s forget the god, it really is the Moon`s perigee, where the Moon is closest to earth, and usually represents an almost overwhelming urge to merge with someone or something in a very real tangible way. As it represents the point where Moon is closest to earth, it also represents the need and urge for being as emotionally close as possible, and trying to reach this goal by being physically close, or reducing distance/ space, and yes, physical merging, usually jumping over fences or boundaries. Which is of course interesting. lol

It kinda reminds me of him coming down of stage to hand me back my cake-tin. So Ceres-symbolism. lol Neptune`s presence probably diminishing any kind of boundaries but also veiling the urgency a bit. sublimating something, or enhancing the psychic antennas.


In terms of our ntal chart it was:

Tr Moon trine my Neptune 0°27
Tr Moon trine my NN 0°13
Tr Moon novile his Priapus 0°23

(his Priapus binovile my Neptune 0°50 and binovile my NN 0°36)






"And his 9th Saturn your 9th moon is very curious, "
Yes I think so too, especially as it makes a T-square with his Sun, which I find interesting. our Venus-Venus-opposition squares my Sun after all.
I am not exactly sure what this is about, might be a few hurdles on the road, but overall the squares seem to also speak to a lot of energy in the 9th harmonic chart, after all the 9th harmonic aspects on themselves are about harmony, and that doe snot always create attention enough, it`s just very nice often. So an opposition here or there might actually be not that bad.

However Saturn-opposite-Moon is a bit, I don`t know it`s just intriguing, even though it does not look very easy or light. Interestingly we both have Moon in aspect to Saturn in our respective natals (quinkunx and square). Plus in the 9th harmonic we have both each of us Saturn on the DESC, in my case conjunct Juno, for him it is conjunct Venus.

Well on monday Tr Chiron was exactly on my Moon (or actually it was novile), Tr Mercury and Tr Saturn were on his Sun (trine and conjunct) and my Saturn (binovile and quadranovile), Juno (novile and binovile) and DESC (novile and quadranovile).


The other activations I found pretty interesting were these:

Tr Pluto 24 Gemini
my Neptune 29 Gemini
my NN 1 Cancer
his Mercury 24 Gemini
his Lilith 23 Gemini

(yes my Neptune-NN are still in orb, still well under one degree in natal, however the activation of HIS Mercury-Lilith from Tr Pluto was ridiculously exact).

in natal that means it was:

Tr Pluto novile his Mercury 0°00!!!!!
Tr Pluto trine his Lilith 0°05



A transit that was only for me important, he has nothing there in 9th harmonic

Tr Uranus 15 Scorpio

my Mercury 15 Scorpio
my MC 14 Scorpio
(my Mars 16 Taurus)

(natally that meant Tr Uranus was trine my Mercury very very closely, and quadranovile my MC)



Tr NN 12 Capricorn
my Vertex 13 Capricorn
my Vesta 12 Capricorn
his NN 12 Capricorn

he was having his nodal return this night, and actually within an hour of our encounter. lol So for him it meant Tr NN was conjunct his NN.
For me Tr NN was trine my Vesta exactly (1 minute I think) and novile my Vertex (6 minutes or so).


and Tr SN was on my Uranus (which is sextile his NN and my Vesta in the natal chart, all with a 1 or 2 minute orb).



Tr Vesta on 8 Pisces was on my Moon on 3 Pisces and his Juno on 8 Pisces

Tr Vesta was actually natally conjunct his Juno, and quadranovile my Moon, which of course means there must be some 9th harmonic aspect bewteen my Moon and his Juno. which I had no clue about. lol

let me check, oh yes, natally my Moon is quadranovile his Juno by 0°33 (funny enough his Sun is binovile my Juno as well with no orb really, 0°00 lol)



also there was

Tr Juno 10 Gemini (hey on your ASC)
my Lilith 11 Gemini
my ASC 3 Gemini
his Ceres 3 Gemini

natally that means:

Tr Juno novile my Lilith 0°15
Tr Juno novile my ASC 0°42 (so Tr JUno was on the midpoint of those two)
Tr Juno binovile his Ceres 0°41


(his Ceres trine my ASC 0°01)
(his Ceres binovile my Lilith 0°56)



this did not relate to me but

Tr Vertex was conjunct his Vertex in the 9th harmonic chart very closely too.
(Tr Vertex trine his natal Vertex by 0°09)

[Ava]

lumina

"Yes he certainly does. But that doesn`t mean I will follow that."

ROTFL I love your spirit. I'm on my way out but thanks for the posts, be back later!

[lumina]

Ava,


"26.44 Pisces sun
27.57 Pisces moon "
Wow! So your wedding chart must have a VERY exact novile, binovile, trine or quadranovile then!



"I just wonder if the pure math astrological concepts can still describe us, as if we embody these equations somehow."
Possibly. I am the wrong person to argue this, because I am not decided on this at all. It might be of course. That by multiplying the positions by 9, this still has something to say about us, even if it was not a real existing chart.

I just want to be conscious of what it is I am doing. And if I compare 9th harmonic to natal then this is purely symbolical, while 9th to 9th is simply putting a magnifying glass onto the natal, and singling out certain aspect families.



"We do a bit of that already with progressions."
Those are real existing charts though.
Of course the premise that every day after birth equates a year in our lives is pretty symbolical. But the calculation is not symbolical.



"how mathematical is our lives, anyway? "
As Pythagoras said: Everything`s a number. lol

No seriously, I just want to keep the awareness of the line between the calculation of astrological whatever, and the interpretation. While the interpreation is of course based on symbols, the underlying calculation is not.


"which is just that I look and see where the numbers match."
Yeah but sometimes things match coincidentally.

If we are having synchronicity, we need both actually, the perceived result (matching numbers) as well as a reliably, repeateable cause (or calculation, which has to be consistent).

But that is getting a bit difficult for me to explain - at these points I realize English is not my mother language. lol



Well just speaking symbolically, I will keep that in mind, that P`s

9th harmonic Valentine is exactly conjunct my natal Sun,
and his 9th harmonic Juno is conjunct my nameasteroid in his natal exact (and my natal Jupiter-Ceres). lol

[lumina]

Apr 30, 2017 2:20:06 GMT Ava said:

So we know he was telling the absolute truth? Well he was in one of his more open, revealing moods, wouldn't you say?



Well, he was pretty drunk I think. 

[lumina]

wanna share some videos on the 9th harmonic charts. It might be long, but it`s worth it. 

[lumina]

I`ve looked up our 9th harmonic first meeting chart many many years ago ..... and well, an image sais more than a thousand words - and I feel pretty speechless to be honest. lol



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