|
Post by jacaranda on May 29, 2021 15:32:07 GMT
Hello everyone,
I would like to hear your thoughts on 12th house synastry.
What happens when there are several 12th H placements? How would the relationship play out....possible enemy? Karmic? Doomed? Or soulmate?
Her Pluto and North Node in his 12th.
His Mercury and Saturn in her 12th.
|
|
|
Post by midnight on May 30, 2021 1:52:07 GMT
Hey, jacaranda . I will share my thoughts tomorrow/ Monday. We don't have heavy 12H overlays in our Synastry but we do have a heavy 12H Composite, if that helps. All I can say, for now, it's not all doom and gloom, but I believe at least one person should be familiar with the 12H energy.
|
|
t5
New Member
Posts: 299
|
Post by t5 on May 30, 2021 7:20:11 GMT
jacaranda ... My mother had a 7-deg-orb Jupiter-Saturn conjunction that fell in my Virgo/12th house and her Virgo/5th ... We had an excellent mother-son relationship, until she died (when I was 45). However ... she was indeed a 12th house "hidden psychological enemy within" for me ... because (throughout all of those 45 years) she instilled in me her own 5th house 'thing that she loved as though it was her child'. In her case, that thing was the unshakable belief that "one should always put the needs of others before those of ourself". Moreover, she walked-that-walk every day of the 45 years that I was blessed to have known her, and was much loved by everyone for doing so. Hence, it was somewhat inevitable that I became an adult who held that same ( childhood-conditioned) belief and was also much-loved by others for walking-its-walk. However, by the age of 44, this "caring for the needs of others" had brought me to the brink of physical + psychological breakdown ... and it suddenly dawned on me that, if my health did breakdown, I would no longer be able to even care for myself (let alone anyone else). ... So, that childhood-conditioned Piscean-Age belief (or hidden psychological enemy created by my mother) had to be adapted to an Aquarian-Age belief that "one should always put first the most important need of your group/society". And, in this case, the most important need of my group was for me to remain healthy. [Note : This is a long-winded explanation, but my point is that these "hidden psychological enemies within" are often perceived by us to be a strength rather than a weakness. And note also how the pisces vs aquarius age beliefs are another example of the "nice" vs "kind" issue which cropped up in your earlier thread on relationships.]
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on May 30, 2021 7:45:25 GMT
Thank you for sharing t5! You have an interesting take on it...."hidden psychological enemies".
If you don't mind me asking, inspite of having an excellent relationship with your mum did you at any point feel disappointment at her conditioning, thereby making her the 'enemy'?
Probably her Saturn in your 12th was the reason for this type of teaching / conditioning / passed down beliefs?
Could the Saturn person be a sort of spiritual teacher to the 12th house person?
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on May 30, 2021 7:59:03 GMT
t5, yes! I see the nice vs kind in pisces vs aquarius ages !
|
|
t5
New Member
Posts: 299
|
Post by t5 on May 30, 2021 14:15:45 GMT
jacaranda ... I never contemplated the childhood conditioning by my parents until after becoming a full-time astrology student, at he age of 44. The conditioning by my mother occurred in several different ways, and never impacted negatively upon our relationship whilst she was alive. So, she was never an open enemy (of whom I was consciously aware) until after her death - when I was 45. This accords completely with the fact that my life has been a game of two halves though ... with the events of the first 45 years providing the lessons that astrology has led me to reflect upon after the age of 45.
|
|
|
Post by Ava on Jun 2, 2021 15:14:49 GMT
Not meaning to judge, but for the sake of perspective into 12H overlays... Those are strong words t5 . Open enemy. Considering what you've described, how is it even possible to determine someone an enemy if they sustained a good relationship with you until they died? It seems an intellectual conclusion more than feeling-based, ie love. I made a comment and deleted it about my Mars in my husband's 12H, nothing bad but didn't feel like leaving it out on the internet. Relationships are complex so it's tough to match the expectation of the astrology with all that's going on or happened. I have Cancer and early Leo in the 12H and don't regard people with their suns there as enemies, overt or covert...seems there is no justification for any prejudice, and my social history doesn't really support any overarching pattern or theme. I do think about my natal 12H Saturn and how planets conjunct that in synastry are playing out.
|
|
t5
New Member
Posts: 299
|
Post by t5 on Jun 3, 2021 6:22:59 GMT
Ava ... This is a good point, and provides an opportunity for me to clarify/explain another word that I use in astrology to mean something different to how we use it in normal/everyday social conversations. So ... enemy = that (including, but not confined to those) which have the potential to hinder our personal development. ... And, open = what we are aware of : hidden = what we are not yet aware of. This is a conscious/deliberate attempt by me to detach from intentionally-emotive words in the English language (like enemy), because I consider the language of astrology to be non-emotive/100% objective/"cold-and-specific". ... And that detachment enables me to separate the much loved real-life mother that raised me from the astrological moon-mother that (unintentionally/unknowingly) hindered my personal development by conditioning me to believe ( without question) that "one should always put the needs of others before our own". And, of course, what I am saying here is that (in my opinion) astrological conclusions should be intellectual rather than feeling-based. ... However, after arriving at our astrological conclusions objectively, we then need to also consider them non-astrologically and subjectively. ... So, my much loved mother was actually also my best friend astrologically - because she guided me to my current belief that "one should always put first the most important need of our group/society". ... But, for the planets to make that happen, it was necessary for her to be both a hidden and open enemy/"teacher" that initially hindered my personal development.
|
|
|
Post by whisperix on Jun 3, 2021 12:51:12 GMT
t5Interesting to read. May I ask: Do you have a yod in your chart?
|
|
t5
New Member
Posts: 299
|
Post by t5 on Jun 7, 2021 7:37:09 GMT
whisperix ... No ... but my natal chart is an eastern bowl, with 29Gemin45 Uranus (retrograde) on MC opposite 0Capricorn59 Jupiter on Ic, and Chiron at 29Scorpio29 is qcx Uranus + semisextile Jupiter ... So, progressions and transits to Capricorn 30 and Aries 30 create temporary yods - one with Uranus at the apex and the other having apex Chiron. Moreover, my natal Sun is at 27Scorpio41, so Chiron in those temporary yods tends to manifest specifically as a wounded-sun. And the Uranus-Jupiter opposition seems to be about learning when (and when not) to challenge the status quo*. [ * In childhood, my Jupiterian father conditioned me to believe that 'good soldiers follow orders' ... But, in my adolescence, he (as Uranus) added "good people challenge orders whenever their conscience requires them to do so".]
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on Jun 8, 2021 4:34:30 GMT
t5 says
"So ... enemy = that (including, but not confined to those) which have the potential to hinder our personal development. ... And, open = what we are aware of : hidden = what we are not yet aware of."
My sister, 2 years younger, and I have multiple 12th house overlays. She was a "hidden enemy" till about two years ago. Hidden only because I refused to accept that she was emotionally and financially manipulating me, a complete psychic vampire. Harsh words, I know, but it took me so long to realize that she has a narcissitic personality disorder (projecting her shortcomings onto me, taking credit for my achievements, turning friends and family against me etc etc), and as the empath I became her target throughout childhood. My childhood was lost.
I became 'aware' after having an psychological breakdown well into adulthood, thereby making her the "open enemy" and choosing to become estranged from her but still having her cross my boundaries.
12th house overlays have thus made me extremely wary.
But, do ALL 12ths play out similarly? Or do they have a capacity to change in romantic partnerships?
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on Jun 8, 2021 5:14:11 GMT
theinnerwheel.com/2009/09/16/synastry-studies-the-twelfth-house-and-the-double-inconjunct/An interesting opinion on 12th overlays by Dawn Bodrogi. (I definitely did not have the kind of relationship she describes with the sibling. But maybe, the sibling was inclined to project her own shortcomings onto me, in a weird way finding the numinous in me, the older sister? 😖 The very thought is bringing up feelings of anxiety). Perhaps Bodrogi's theory of finding divinity within Self through Other is better expressed in a romantic partnership?
|
|
t5
New Member
Posts: 299
|
Post by t5 on Jun 9, 2021 6:58:43 GMT
jacaranda ... The what-and-how is determined by the natal promise of the 12th house, in the synastry and individual charts of the two people. For example ... Virgo is duplicated on the cusp of my 12th+1st houses - indicating a natal issue for me, involving Virgo (the sign of personal serving) and 12th house (of serving others). ... My mother's Jupiter-Saturn synastry addition to my 12th House indicates that it will 'attract something relating to MY natal 12th house issue'. ... How difficult/easy it will be (for me) to experience-and-learn from that "something" will be determined by the synastry aspects from her Jupiter-Saturn to my natal chart. However ... at any point in the relationship with my mother, either (or both) of us may become conscious of the "something" that is unconsciously influencing our behaviour/interaction - and, by changing that behaviour, we can change the relationship. With the Equal Houses System, all of us have a Yod relationship between the cusps of the 12th-2nd-7th houses. ... In my natal chart, it puts Saturn in the 12th house (whereas Placidus places it in the 11th). ... So, MY natal Saturn and my mother's Jupiter-Saturn are "attracting something relating to MY natal Virgo/12th house issue". Thus, even without the synastry addition of my mother's Jupiter-Saturn, my own natal Saturn would have attracted events intended to teach me to be more discerning (Virgo) about how to correctly/effectively fulfil my duty (Saturn) of serving others (12th house). ... However, the synastry contact with my mother will have attracted additional events - thus enabling me to learn that lesson faster/earlier than I might otherwise have done. ... (And, I still did not "get it" until after the age of 40+ ---- when the death of my mother finally freed me to view her as the astrological Moon rather than the much-loved female who nurtured me throughout my childhood and adolescence.) For me ... 12th house Virgo offers discernment; 2nd house Scorpio has the inclination to self-reflect; Venus in Libra-1st wants to be seen as fair-to-others and Neptune in Libra/1st is teaching the need to be fair-to-all (including ourself).
|
|
|
Post by Ava on Jun 11, 2021 0:46:47 GMT
My sister, 2 years younger, and I have multiple 12th house overlays. She was a "hidden enemy" till about two years ago. Hidden only because I refused to accept that she was emotionally and financially manipulating me, a complete psychic vampire. I'm so sorry about your situation. That is really awful. I've had mixed experiences with planets falling in my 12th but coincidentally my sister's sun-moon-Mercury falls in my 12th and she did things behind my back that I only learned about much later. We often didn't get along but at least whenever I complained, I was telling the truth. She'd call relatives with completely contrived stories that didn't even make sense. It got increasingly worse until finally she cut me off and now I have no idea where she is. Kind of literal that she "lives" in my 12H and is now more like a skeleton in my closet and distant memory (haven't spoken to her in almost a decade ~ I feel bad, but it's her choice.) But these are dysfunctional situations and since I love other people whose suns are in my 12th I know it doesn't always play out so badly. But it can....especially, as you said, with multiple overlays. Pls don't quote
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on Jun 21, 2021 4:20:30 GMT
Thank you t5 and Ava! t5, I will reread your reply and attempt to understand. Since I am fairly new to this it takes me a while to Ava, I am so sorry that you had this experience with your sister. I hope you have healed. Much love to you. Midnight, I would love to hear your experiences too.
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on Jun 21, 2021 4:47:05 GMT
From the little bit of information available online, 12th house overlays could possibly manifest like this:
Mercury in 12th: Psychic and telepathic connection between both people. They are able to read each other's minds, complete each other's sentences. Mercury is always aware of house person's thoughts. This can feel intrusive or feel being understood on a deep level depending on the individual's awareness and evolution.
(In my case it manifested negatively with my sibling... She would read my thoughts before I vocalized them and use them against me).
North node in 12th: The node person is the path of destiny for the house person. As in, helping the house person find and/ or guide them through their purpose for being.
Saturn in 12th: Saturn person could be a mentor / guide / teacher / parent figure for house person. Again, the house can either feel suffocated or elevated depending on early childhood experiences with said authority figures. A negative experience in childhood could cause the house to appreciate / love the planet for their guidance.
Pluto in 12th: Somewhat similiar to mercury in 12th. A deep, telepathic understanding of each other. Emotional bonding. Being in each other's dreams before meeting.
Venus in 12th: Can cause unrequited love. Both feel the other is the The One but both or one may be unable to express it due to internal or external circumstances.
These are general descriptions. I would still like to hear about actual experiences!!
|
|
t5
New Member
Posts: 299
|
Post by t5 on Jun 21, 2021 7:42:54 GMT
jacaranda ... How has this been achieved via the interactions between you and your sister? ... What have you learned (about yourself) from your "hidden enemy"?
|
|
|
Post by jacaranda on Jul 5, 2021 11:12:47 GMT
Hey t5, I do not have a north node in 12th overlay with the sibling. We have mercury and mars and one more which I can't remember for now.
But I do have my north node in the 12th of a potential new romantic interest, along with mercury, pluto and saturn...which is simultaneously making me curious but wary....push-pull, should i go for him or should I run...
(We also have multiple 8th house and 1st house placements for which I will have to start whole new threads:-)
|
|
|
Post by jerymcd on Aug 14, 2021 11:58:07 GMT
Great post! Anyone ever thought about Karmic Relationship and Life Path number go together as it always leaves causes on anyone. A karmic relationship is a passionate relationship that is full of turbulence. Karmic relationships are related to karma in a sense because they are thought of as relationships that we need in our lives in order to grow. These relationships teach you lessons and point you in the right direction.
|
|
|
Post by neptunesbaby on Aug 17, 2021 2:21:02 GMT
I wanted to make my own post about this very subject. I have heavy 12th house synastry with someone that I dated in the past who I believe to be twin flame? I could be wrong.
My Sun, mars, and Uranus is in his 12th. His Moon, mars and North node is in my 12th.
My experience with this relationship was.. it was super spiritual and we both felt like we had known each other already in such a short period of time. He told me that he'd never told anyone he loved them before physical intimacy and I can definitely agree that this feeling is something I never felt for anyone ever and I don't think I ever will again. It might sound corny but it was like a fairytale, we finished each other sentences and knew exactly how the other felt without saying a word. Everything was perfect. Or so I thought..
He was my best friend and lover, my savior and knight. Being with him felt like home. We ended on a terrible note and haven't spoken in almost 3 years. I have no idea if he thinks about me but something tells me that he does. I think about him damn near everyday, sometimes I miss him dearly and sometimes I HATE HIM. When things ended, I felt like I had been lied to and deceived like he wasn't the person I thought he was. He hurt me in a way that I never thought he would. We also have neptune-moon double whammy (trine/square) so that could also explain why I feel like the rug had been pulled from beneath me. I could honestly go on forever but long story short, I'll always love him unconditionally but I don't trust him. I know him but then again I don't. In my heart I know he still cares and wonders but he'll never admit it and for that I try to let it go. It's difficult though. He's also in my 4th house plenty.
|
|