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Post by FruityLlama on Jun 11, 2018 19:37:48 GMT
I have several charts of friends/family or that of other friends and when I look at those who have been known to be quite 'rude', there is either an opposition or square between Saturn and the Sun. These aren't people I or others particularly dislike by the way, just known for being discourteous. Has anyone else noticed this? Or have charts to disprove it even? Like with anything, one aspect to indicate anything is usually supported by other similar aspects to validate it so with these charts there is also something like Mercury-Saturn, hard Saturn-ASC/Mars-ASC something like that. But I get excited when I notice a pattern or something  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 21:10:50 GMT
Yes they’re quite rude.
Square/oppositionti Saturn Sun ppl often feel like they got put in place... so somehow they have to do that to you. Usually in a very preachy way. While the conjunction is a lot more internal.
Almost as if these ppl are resentful that the events of life place them where they are.
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Post by FruityLlama on Jun 11, 2018 21:32:36 GMT
Yeah I was just thinking the conjunction seems different and internal like you say. I suppose because the harsher aspects indicate the struggle to integrate energies so that does make a lot of sense.
Sometimes the ones that acknowledge this (not all people in my dataset do) seem kinda proud of it as well.. I will have to see if I can find something that further distinguishes the self awareness/pride.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 22:10:05 GMT
Well sun-Saturn conjunction actually beat themselves down. They know they set themselves up for high standard. They blame themselves for their own failings
The square and opposition seem to blame the world, or luck or whatever else idk.
Also as ppl with the conjunction get older, they relax. They move from being really stiff and serious to relax.
Ppl with the square or opposition are quite undisciplined when young. As they get older they don’t take risk much and would prefer status quo. Ppl in my families have these aspects. I have the conjunction
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Post by Ava on Jun 12, 2018 2:29:35 GMT
Typically I think the hard aspects hold back and curtail impulses, while the easy aspects allow for free expression.
...
Anyway I suppose sun square Saturn people may have complicated or more intense relationships with their fathers, or with the reigning social structure. Or there may have just been trauma. They may have felt that no one had their back, there was no safety net, they had to fend for themselves. So, some overdeveloped defense mechanisms, like someone living on the streets will have quick reflexes and jump at the slightest sound. Why? Because there is no other security system in place for them.
Now whether or not their outward life and upbringing "justifies" this kind of reactivity, I think it doesn't matter, it's just they end up self-reliant for better or worse. In my sister's case (Cancer sun square Aries Saturn), she cut off her whole family and who knows how she's surviving.
But in a more evolved person, this could be very good, creating a strong person who becomes a support system for other people. I mean, the square is an invitation towards mastery, hard-won. Oprah Winfrey, Jennifer Lopez have this.
Lea Michele has the square, her song to her boyfriend Cory Monteith, about her abandonment ("If You Say So"), is just so completely raw and broken...part of the psychology of the square that we usually don't get to see. I think it's strong to be able to reveal that.
Just my impressions.
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Post by Ava on Jun 12, 2018 2:50:58 GMT
Sun square Saturn seems to be in line with the mood of teenage fiction.....or the casting anyway...
Kristen Stewart (Twilight), Emma Watson (Harry Potter), Dakota Johnson (50 Shades of Grey, plus the actual Sasha Grey has this)...Eddie Redmayne...
Mary Stuart Masterson was a teen rebel type of the 80s and 90s, she has the square.
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Post by lumina on Jun 12, 2018 8:32:20 GMT
P has the exact square between Sun and Saturn, and both angular, with Sun on the MC and Saturn on the DESC, but he doesn´t seem to be rude to me. gotta have to think a bit more about that.
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Post by FruityLlama on Jun 12, 2018 11:02:58 GMT
In some the cases Ive seen, some have implied the need to create their own security systems in a way as there was a lot of upheaval in life. One moved coutries, one had a terrible home life. The others have a weird inferior, but kind of also superior complex for no obvious reason. They assume other people are stupid and pathetic, especially family and neednt be bothered with and I think this is where the rudeness comes out as there is a cinstant aggrivation. Additional mars aspects may set these apart from those who have other reasons going on I dont know yet.
One family member has it tightly and while I know they have insecurities and I tried to help with them, they will push back and treat me like shit because I am a bit zany and they/Saturn hates that. This chart is an example of the Mars further interfering as it squares ASC.
Some are nicer than others I have to say and of course there are evolved/unevolved versions.
And it may be the way my chart perceives such energy. My Saturn trines my ASC exactly, conjuncts MC closely, sextiles mercury and I think it squares mars so Saturn is easier integrated in my chart. I am perhaps sensitive to harsher aspects in others. This might explain why I picked out those who I have found rude in the past and they all had this aspect.
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Jun 12, 2018 11:14:56 GMT
Typically I think the hard aspects hold back and curtail impulses, while the easy aspects allow for free expression. ... Anyway I suppose sun square Saturn people may have complicated or more intense relationships with their fathers, or with the reigning social structure. Or there may have just been trauma. They may have felt that no one had their back, there was no safety net, they had to fend for themselves. So, some overdeveloped defense mechanisms, like someone living on the streets will have quick reflexes and jump at the slightest sound. Why? Because there is no other security system in place for them. Now whether or not their outward life and upbringing "justifies" this kind of reactivity, I think it doesn't matter, it's just they end up self-reliant for better or worse.
Great explanation, thanks! What FruityLlama and others perceive is actually kind of textbook. Saturn is semi-generational, sorry to repeat myself.  The way Jupiter aspects make society look on that person favourably or indulgently, the Saturn hard aspects get disapproving Saturn reactions from their environment (with good reason, I'm sure).
It feeds into a cycle. Like Ava said up there, they've learnt to be self-reliant at any cost. So, if expressing themselves, their essence (the Sun), gets them Saturn-like reactions, they re-double their efforts to wall themselves off. They take on some of that Saturn harshness themselves to defend against that.
@theunknown, Actually I think the hard aspects are more disciplined and self-punishing than the conjunction. They only learn to loosen up as they grow up a little (kinda like Capricorn in that respect). At least that's the way it's been for me and some folks I know. Always called "too serious", lol. We're like gloomy little adults in children's bodies. Over-prepared for disaster, always on edge...
With the luminaries in hard aspect - self-expression can be really tricky. As mentioned above, some over-developed defense mechanisms are in action. In their mind, they're reacting to that original trauma. Which they likely will never talk about, because...Saturn!
- Sun/Merc/Mars square Saturn.  |
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Jun 12, 2018 11:19:24 GMT
In some the cases Ive seen, some have implied the need to create their own security systems in a way as there was a lot of upheaval in life. One moved coutries, one had a terrible home life. The others have a weird inferior, but kind of also superior complex for no obvious reason. They assume other people are stupid and pathetic, especially family and neednt be bothered with and I think this is where the rudeness comes out as there is a cinstant aggrivation. Additional mars aspects may set these apart from those who have other reasons going on I dont know yet. One family member has it tightly and while I know they have insecurities and I tried to help with them, they will push back and treat me like shit because I am a bit zany and they/Saturn hates that. This chart is an example of the Mars further interfering as it squares ASC. Some are nicer than others I have to say and of course there are evolved/unevolved versions. And it may be the way my chart perceives such energy. My Saturn trines my ASC exactly, conjuncts MC closely, sextiles mercury and I think it squares mars so Saturn is easier integrated in my chart. I am perhaps sensitive to harsher aspects in others. This might explain why I picked out those who I have found rude in the past and they all had this aspect. Hmm... If someone is being prickly like that, I can understand why you'd be wary of them. I might've been like that when I was younger. I dunno how old they are, but until they come to terms with their own insecurity, they'll probably continue being like that.
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Post by FruityLlama on Jun 12, 2018 11:26:44 GMT
That is true, and I dont dislike these people as I said, but there are certain energies to be picked up on and do seem to fit with the textbook examples in my limited dataset anyway.
And the pricklier ones are younger than me so quite young haha!
I like what you said about Jupiter and Saturn and semi generational perceptions. That makes a lot of sense as such prickiliness may differ in defintion depending on generational and cultural norms.
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Jun 12, 2018 11:33:21 GMT
^ Haha! I'm tempted to say they'll improve with age, coz we tend to. But... Let's see! |
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Post by Ava on Jun 12, 2018 12:31:27 GMT
Hmm... If someone is being prickly like that, I can understand why you'd be wary of them. I might've been like that when I was younger. I dunno how old they are, but until they come to terms with their own insecurity, they'll probably continue being like that. I think I honestly don't remember myself too well, from when I was younger, because a lifetime of self-criticism and regret has mainly preserved recollections of times when I screwed up, or attitudes I carried that feel so "off" now. So my memories are colored negatively more than realistically. As FruityLlama said, it was an inferiority/superiority complex. "Oh *I'M* always the loser? Hey what about you?" Sun quindecile (165°) Saturn, in mutual reception with Saturn, ruled by Saturn... Yeah and part of me is still like that, the elitist Capricorn mentality has to believe that "My way is better, I climbed this damn mountain for a reason, that's because it's better...." and other personality forces try to keep that in check, understand where it's even coming from. If someone challenges me on those points where I know better, we have an argument ready to go, though I am non-confrontational in the extreme, in real life. I just shut down or walk off. If it's a book or magazine disagreeing with me (mocking astrology or natural medicine, my sacred cows) I usually immediately stop reading. Even if it was a good book, you can't take a swipe at my beliefs and expect me to put up with it (sorry Malcolm Gladwell, you were good to me, but what you're not going to do is, make fun of astrology.)  |
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Post by Ava on Jun 12, 2018 12:38:53 GMT
P has the exact square between Sun and Saturn, and both angular, with Sun on the MC and Saturn on the DESC, but he doesn´t seem to be rude to me. gotta have to think a bit more about that. He's never rude is he? His Pisces ASC t-squares sun and Saturn...I think he challenges people in funny or indirect ways, maybe even by caring for them when they weren't expecting to be cared for, putting them off guard....if he has an agenda with anyone, it might be to pry open their spirit to make it bigger... |
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Post by lumina on Jun 12, 2018 13:07:51 GMT
P has the exact square between Sun and Saturn, and both angular, with Sun on the MC and Saturn on the DESC, but he doesn´t seem to be rude to me. gotta have to think a bit more about that. His Pisces ASC t-squares sun and Saturn...I think he challenges people in funny or indirect ways, maybe even by caring for them when they weren't expecting to be cared for, putting them off guard....if he has an agenda with anyone, it might be to pry open their spirit to make it bigger...
Well that is very true in relation to me.
As for never being rude, well It`s actually not that easy to say. No, he is not rude, as in insulting anyone, but there have been instances where he has put his honest opinion out there, but that happened after others have been, as I though pretty rude, and crossing lines. In fact I think there is a certain category of fans who is really really crossing lines, and I was marvelling and flabbergasted as how he seemed to just think it is normal or something, at least he did not say anything. Well I did. LOL We did not even know each other back then (not even sure we do now, but at least better than back then), but I thought someone was being overly demanding (and rude) and just blurted out with that, how she is being over the line. He didn`t say anything, he was just smiling. lol I just hate it if People think they are entitled to something and putting demands on someone, except of being grateful for him giving so much of his time and Attention when he really does not have to do that. He could go on stage, off stage and home and not deal with the crazies. lol
It was just odd how I seemed to be more enraged about that than he himself. (though last time he did sort of turn to his wife complaining he was being shouted at, but clearly in a joking - look at me poor poor guy- Kind of way, and partly it felt like it was intended to make People laugh, it was not really serious).
However what he really took serious and that is something he will not accept is when he had been sick last year and a certain bunch of People claiming they knew what the reason was, what was going on, and also why a former Music Formation had split up (they are going to have a reunion this year actually -b ut that was a raw spot clearly), anyway that was when he bloew up, and mostly because he really really dislikes it if People pretend to have inner knowledge (when they really don´t) and putting it out there in form of rumours, probably just to make themselves look superior to others. He was when blowing up, at the same time also expressing the fear that some People might not like him anymore and not talk to him anymore after that, but that was a risk he had to take, cause in this instance he just HAD to speak up.
but you could hear that there had been a Long time things piling up inside of him, usually he just keeps out of These discussions etc.
also I heard, rumours of course (and I do not give credit to those), that some People said he had been rude to them and brushing them off, however I cannot imagine that. Well I know him and I know those People who said that, and maybe he was just not prioritizing them as they seem to think they are entitled to, and yes, it might be that he does not like everyone equally much. And if People attend his own Workshops and want a honest opinion, he probably is giving them that, and also telling them honestly when their Talent will not be enough for stage. And well sometimes People think of that as rude. Or maybe he was. I don´t know. I was not there, and I have never really seen him rude. Well I have seen him distracted/ absentmindedly and at some Points that could have been seen as a bit rude in the sense of not giving his whole Attention to someone else (but who am I to complain? They had been appraoching him sideways, while we were still in a talk, and so he was sort of giving them autographs while still being turned to me. Just one or two weird occasions. But that is really small stuff, more like a lack of Focus/ Attention, but not really being rude in an offensive way)
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Post by lumina on Jun 12, 2018 13:15:43 GMT
Also what People never seems to get (cause he is projecting this "fun-guy-image") is that he is so much more reserved, selfconscious and selfcritical and yes, insecure and uncertain in Terms of never Feeling REALLY worthy of being loved for himself than he seems to. Sun on his MC in Sag, is so easygoing, so approachable, so fun, and it IS part of his true nature, yet it is just a part of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 14:10:15 GMT
Saturn hard aspects get disapproving Saturn reactions from their environment.
In my experience yes, sometimes. I have saturn in my first squaring my MC and widely(7 deg) conjuncting my ASC, and it conjuncts my pluto. Saturn is hitting more less all my planets(except mercury and no hard aspects with the exception of pluto and my angles). I don't have the hard aspect with my sun, though I have a semi-sextile. Anyway I have been told countless times I look so much better when I smile or why didnt I laugh at that "funny" joke or "why do you look angry". I don't feel miserable I guess I must have a naturally sombre face lol. If I find something amusing I will laugh my head off. I can't do this fake nice stuff it makes me feel dirty and I don't like it being done with me. I had a friend once tell me I come across as distant until you get to know me better, then I don't shut up lol. I am just cautious around people I don't know well and don't enjoy small talk, it feels like tiny talk. As I've gotten older I have become more open though and if someone asks for my opinion, i will give it. Pls dont quote |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 17:24:13 GMT
12YearsABlob let me correct myself. All the sun-square-saturn are very self-disciplined as children. I'd say the saturn-sun conjunction has certain level of self-entitlement and feel like they can make their own rules so they don't become disciplined until they are young adults. However, sun-square-saturn focus once free to roam in the so-called real world tend to go through a period of ... uhm i don't have to please anyone, i have no structure enforced on me now so to hell with it. Obviously it's subjective because their wild days are still tamed compared to many others'. But sun-saturn conjunction at some point during their teens to 20s suddenly decide to not mess around any more. P!nk is an example. Also because of such period, the square/opposition ppl decide in their late 20s-30s that it was a bad idea to break free of the mold. And yes, they are always too serious when it comes to following rules, boundaries, not missing payments etc.
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Post by FruityLlama on Jun 14, 2018 19:04:51 GMT
Yes and I think its more relevant to ptolemaic aspects. I don't know what the others do really other than have a milder effect.
"I don't have to please anyone" is more or less what Ive heard from about three people in my database actually @theunknown
Or feeling that they can't win either way, something like that
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The way Jupiter aspects make society look on that person favourably or indulgently, the Saturn hard aspects get disapproving Saturn reactions from their environment (with good reason, I'm sure). 