Solar Return of composites and Davisons

[lumina]

Did we have such a thread before? I can`t remember, but I am curious what were your observations/ experiences with those?

[lumina]

Well, I am just looking at the Solar Return of my brother`s and his wife`s composite for the year they got married. 

First thing jumping out at me: 

SR Venus falling onto their composite Juno-ASC-conjunction, well on its own the conjunction is a bit wide, 4 degrees, but SR Venus fell right in the middle

c-ASC 10 Aries
SR Venus 12 Aries
c-Juno 14 Aries


SR Vertex falling onto their 7th house Moon in Scorpio (flanked by Saturn and Pluto)


SR ASC widely conjunct composite NN (5 degrees)

SR Sun-Chiron-Mercury falling onto composite Venus 

SR Saturn onto composite Jupiter-Neptune

SR Juno exactly trine SR Ceres (the thing that propelled them to get married after all these years really was the birth of their son the year prior). 


Actually their Solar Return of their composite for the year of their son`s birth was outstanding, with SR Juno on SR MC, as Apex of a minor triangle with a Jupiter-Pluto-trine


And their Solar Return back then seemed to foreshadow the natal placements of their son, with SR Mars being exact conjunct their son`s natal Mars (Mars was going retro, this is why, their son was being born a few months after their Solar return happened). 

Oh and their SR Venus exactly opposite the little one`s Moon-Venus-conjunction, and they got married with a Solar eclipse on that degree. 


Apart from that it seems to me that even more mindblowing are the overlays to each natal chart, like their marriage year`s Solar Return`s Juno falling exactly onto HER Jupiter-MC conjunction.

And their SR DESC falling onto her Uranus (yes, it was a surprise wedding, mostly. lol)


SR Saturn on his Neptune-MC
SR Venus on his Venus
SR DESC on his MOon by 4 degrees

and so on. 


 

[Ava]

Sorry for ignoring you for over two years lumina .

I just realized, if you have each person's solar return saved in your astrodatabank, you can create the SR of the composite sun by drawing up the Davison chart between the solar returns. You can save that Davison of course, and then check the draconic, harmonics, midpoints, everything you like.

Though, considering the example you laid out above, it seems the regular comp SR is substantial on its own.

I have Gem Mars and like to work with at least two of everything, so the natal-to-draco chart is a favorite. 

In my upcoming comp-sun SR with my ex, the Scorpio sun is tightly conjunct Juno. In the draconic version, Jupiter is exactly on the DSC (using his nodal chart), and the draconic sun is exactly on my draconic Jupiter, but let's remember, I'm approaching this for research purposes only. So the curiously strong relationship indicators won't intrigue me any more than the draconic MC-Chiron right on my sun is going to worry me. All I want to say is, the charts seem cohesive, they makes sense, stuff is falling on our natal placements and the angles and so on.


Pls don't quote

[Ava]

I forgot to say, the Davison sun has to be the same as the composite sun, so sometimes each solar return is set to a different year.

For the year we got engaged/married, my husband and I have this comp SR:




7H stellium including sun, moon-DSC, Mercury, Venus and Juno. 

Not bad for a wedding year. lol

[lumina]

Ava

since I am a bit pressed for time and SHOULD be working on something else for a bit (like for work. lol), I am going to just reply to the technical things. and be back a bit later. 


 

"I just realized, if you have each person's solar return saved in your astrodatabank, you can create the SR of the composite sun by drawing up the Davison chart between the solar returns. "

That would be a mixing up of the two methods though, as the DAvison Sun is not (by default) the same as the composite Sun, not even exactly opposite or conjunct at all times. 

So I would like to make the distinction between Davison and composite charts. 


Solar Return of composite
-----------------------------

1) Check for when transiting Sun comes to the exact same degree and minute of composite sun, this is the time of the solar return.

2) make a Solar Return for each natal, save them, then make a composite of these Solar Returns. 


While we would think it is the same chart, it isn`t, at least not when it comes to the angles and sometimes Moon and houses. 

I tentatively (because I hae not reserached it deeply enough to be claim this with absolute conviction) seem to find that the first methods describes the year better. 


Solar Return of Davison
------------------------------

1) Save the Davison as a natal chart, and then you can do whatever you want to do with it. Solar Return, progression, Draco, harmonics, etc. 


2) make a DAvison of the two Solar Returns. 


However usually the Davison is treated as an individual natal chart (of the relationship) and so the 1st method would apply morefor this I guess. But of course the other method is also a possibility. 
BTW I always use the "uncorrected Davison" chart, cause I feel downright indignated by making a DAvison but then simply taking the composite MC, put it into a Davison chart and look up the corresponding ASC, there is just no logical reason for doing that. Unless we look at a composite chart of course, but then we look at the whole composite chart, not a Davison with composite chart angles. 

Anyway I surely have posted this link before, but this is a rather extensive article about Solar Returns of Davison charts (using an example, and of course I am pretty intrigued by it, the Davison birthdate is 21st december, and the Solar Return for the start of the relationship was in 1974, so around 21st december 1974, their Solar Return is fairly close to my actual birthdate. lol)

www.astro.com/astrology/tma_article150106_e.htm



I vaguely remember I had been checking some Solar Returns of P`s and my Davison, before, and even though I still am not sure what to make of Davisons really, those Solar Returns were quite something in certain years. AT least very interesting. But I would have to look again and in more depth to really be able to say something about it. But I do remember that 

Yeah found the thread!









astrogarden.proboards.com/thread/819/davison-solar-return

Maybe I should have looked up one year after that, too, as it was really obvous that there was a very strong "shift" happening at the end of june/ beginning of july, just when the new Solar REturn of our Davison must have started (though there were interesting events and happenings taking place in the preceding years as well, but still the energetic shift was very noteable, but this of course could have been due to our pr composite Moon having entered Leo around that time as well, would have to look up what was up with the progressed Davison as I have not done so)

[Ava]

Thanks lumina. I never realized the Davison sun differs from the composite sun (or if I knew, I forgot). I knew they could be in opposite signs but I thought the degrees were the same, since a sun/sun midpoint should just be a sun/sun midpoint....I thought. (?)

W/ my husband

25.18 Libra, Davison sun
26.48 Libra, composite sun

So the Davison applies to a day and a half before the composite. I can't wrap my head around this.

[lumina]

Ava

I am not completely sure, but there seems to be a difference in the midpoints of the longitude position of two Suns, which we use for composite, and the midpoint in time between two birthdays (as we use for Davison).

Maybe it is a similiar effect as to why our Solar Returns are often NOT occurring on our exact birthday but a day before or after, like I very often (but not always) have my Solar Return one day BEFORE my actual birthday.

Why this is so, I am not sure.

I DO know that our year actually is not 365 days, but 365 1/4 days long (it has something to do with the conversion from Julian to GRegorian calender, with the Gregorian calender not totally compatible with the actual astronmical solar year) - this is also a reason we need to add a leap day every 4 year, to not totally get out of synch (with the seasons).

(the term" precession of the equinoxes" also floats vaguely through my mind, but I am not sure if it figures in here)


Well for P and me:

composite Sun: 26°26 Sag
Davison Sun: 27°28 Gemini

(we had one Leap year between our birthdays)


Between my Mom and Dad`s birthday there was NO leap year, and their Suns in Davison and composite are partile conjunct, albeit differring by 14 minutes of arc. Adding into this might possibly be the different motion of Sun throughout the year, as it can differ from 57 minutes to 1°01 I think; and the daily motion of Sun is slower from march through september 1, and obviously quicker in winter births. Don`t know exactly how it explains that though, but have a feeling that it does have something to do with that, but it is beyond my horizon or knowledge.

[lumina]

Some people say (like Robert Blashke and Dawn Bodrogi and possibly others) that the Davison chart is more symbolic of the actual reality of a couple, the mundane reality, more event-based perhaps? Or depicting, what happens? And the composite is a map of the energies. 
I am not sure this is really true, as I find events pretty well covered in the composite and the transits as well, but for what it`s worth, this is what Dawn Bodrogi wrote on it: 


"The midpoint chart is a powerful map of an energetic pattern–our hotspots as a couple. It’s our charisma, our union, who we are when we are together. It is inner-oriented, focused around the pure expression of the energy that occurs when our two like planets meet. The Davison, like all time/space charts, is anchored not in pure expression, but in physical reality. It describes who we are together within our particular life circumstances. Therefore the Davison chart is expressed through the physical reality of our lives. It sees our relationship being acted upon by circumstances, places, other entities/beings involved in the partnership. It has a life of its own, and can be progressed the way any normal chart is progressed because it has a real time and a real place to anchor it. (Progressed midpoint charts consist of taking the two individual progressed charts and making a midpoint chart from them.) Now here comes the big question, which is more valid? I say both, and I use them both, in different circumstances, depending on the questions being asked of the partnership."


theinnerwheel.com/2012/04/18/composite-charts-etched-in-stone-or-sand/


Well that topic came up in LL too, and quoting myself from back then. lol (sometimes I go back to grasp something that eludes me now to find I have already written it down there, of course it could be all wrong, too. But what a weird thing to go back in time to "learn from oneself". LOL)


"If that is true, and some astrologers probably would say composite and Davison are really basically the same and hence disagree with the differentiation, but let`s just try it out this way, if that is true, then I think Davison might be more EVENTORIENTED and showing TANGIBLE RESULTS in our PHYSICAL REALITY.



Example:

in an event-composite I have Sun conjunct Venus: I might be receptive to love and open to fall in love and hence experience falling in love.





same Sun-Venus-conjunction in an event Davison, I might either DEMONSTRATE my appreciation for something or someone or might be receiving such.



In fact I had a Sun-Venus-conjunction in the Event-Davison of the concert last friday, and at the end of it I was - of course just as part of the show - given a rose. (Sun/Venus)."


I remember that concert. It was so beautiful, such a beautiful evening (4 years ago, in april). (btw the very year with the SAturn-Neptune transit for both of us Ava . lol)

(and nope, no P-concert )

[lumina]

Also there was a peculiar thing with this rose. I usually have a very ugly brown thumb with plants, and while I had been putting this rose in water of course in a vase, like usually I was not really given it much attention, eventually the water was all gone, without me even noticing and well my mom pointed out to me one day, that this rose had grown roots in that vase.  Actually I kept that rose (and watered it better than before I mean she demonstrated such a will of survival! and was actually growing new leaves, pretty much out of air) for at least 1-2 years, of course eventually it got dry, I mean no rose lives forever, but this one had really such an amazing resilience!


Actually something similiar happend with the Amaryllis my aunt gave me for christmas. Well it should have bloomed within 2 weeks, but nothing happened, but I was too lazy to just put it away, and then in february this year, pretty much right before the troublesome time started, it started to bloom. 

[lumina]

Almost on topic however, our Davison`s Solar Return of the recent year (june 2019 - june 2020) looked like that







Edit: 
As you can see, the Solar Return itself completely dominated by that Moon-Saturn-conjunction, with Saturn having the final say about everything, also very very strong through essential and accidental dignity. But there is a thing as TOO much Saturn. lol

(and possibly cranky that he still holds no real power over Jupiter, Neptune here, like there are two different movies playing int he same theatre. lol and Venus, well on first glance Saturn holds no power here either, but he does due to be the one that Mercury, Venus dispositor, has to answer, and Mercury is like a fish out of water, or actually a Mercury thrown into water in this case, anyway. Sun is pretty much unaspected, I wouldn`t count the aspects to Neptune and Jupiter, but if I would, it wouldn`t really improve anything! lol 

Well Robert Blashke wrote in his book, that he doesn`t consider a Davison Sun (or planet) unaspected if conjunct tightly a midpoint. This is the case in our natal Davson, where Sun intersects the Venus-Saturn-square, having semisquares to both, well obviously that is not the most hilarious placement either. but it creates a minor T-square. or a timebomb. *shrugs*  )

Don`t know if the Solar Return Sun was having direct midpoint pictures though, it doesn`t look like it from first glance. 

[Ava]

lumina

Thank you for explaining more. I'll try and connect with that more thoughtfully later. Honestly, teasing out circumstance (Davison) from essence (composite) is a bit challenging for me, because it assumes there's a real disconnect. Not sure I agree that it's even possible; form and function are usually interdependent. I mean if I eat exceptionally well and exercise, I feel much better mentally, even if I didn't arrive at that state through mental processes. The circumstances created the energy. (And energy created the circumstances in the first place, via intention and willpower.) So if we say that Davison and composite represent the two sides of a coin, or the external and internal, then what's most important in my mind is the synthesis...and where is that, astrologically? 

Do we take the composite and progress it backwards to the Davison date? (Sloppy converse progression?) Or, do we just have to create that synthesis "manually" by finding aspects between the two charts, and harping on those?

Surely there's already a method somewhere, I'm just kinda too bored to look. 

While I'm being difficult , it bothers me that the original Davison refers to a time before both individuals were born. How does anything in me resonate with a time before I arrived on this earth? How does it have any claim on me if I never experienced that energy at all?

Now if you take the first solar return AFTER both parties arrived as *the* Davison, or better yet, only use the Davison Solar Returns, then I can grasp it better. I mean for the love of earth signs, make it so both people were incarnate beings before the Davison took effect? 

Feeling obstinate now, with the moon right on my south node in Taurus (squaring the sun).

Well don't mind me, I know you're busy and don't mean to tax you with questions. But if you have any ideas, of course I'm listening....

[lumina]

Ava

about the first paragraph you wrote, I completely agree. I don`t really think the external can be separated from the internal like this. Doesn`t really make sense to me.

As for the other thing about one person being born before the Davison existed, it doesn`t really bother me. Or at least the thought never occurred to me, it should bother me. Maybe because the connection (to energies from the past) is only there due to the presence of the other person. Well some astrologers even use converse progressions. Possibly this is getting a bit too esoteric though.

Personally I do vibe better with composites, because they are more logical to me (even though, yes, they are no real existing astronomical charts), but Davisons Solar Returns in particular can be pretty mindblowing. I mean the one I just posted above speaks for itself and loudly about the recent year. (and the Solar Returns for the years prior to this as well).
Doesn`t really say anything about the validity of those charts of course.

I am convinced of the validity of composite charts however.

[lumina]

btw this is our current composite Solar Return