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Post by Ava on Jan 28, 2018 3:17:53 GMT
So, Hillary's in trouble for overlooking and excusing harassment committed by her hypocritical faith advisor.
I guess she got used to overlooking this kind of thing, considering the man she married.
I wonder how many rich/powerful men are going to be exposed as creeps in the next year? Seems these people are as common as dirt. I mean, even the POPE overlooks sexual assault. And other religious leaders overlook the pope overlooking assault.
It's almost like -- how is sexual assault avoidable, for anyone in business? Even if you aren't assaulted, you get blamed for how you handled or didn't handle the news. Like Katie Couric was under fire for not condemning Matt Lauer fast enough.
I've never liked or trusted Hillary as a leader/politician, but I also don't like when one person does something wrong, and another person takes too much of the blame. She seems to have made a bad judgment call here, just like she did with Bill's sexual misconduct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_sexual_misconduct_allegations), but we don't know all the details.
All accusations should be taken seriously, but I also think every accused person should also be entitled to a real trial, with evidence, instead of a media hate campaign that's based on tiny bits of information. Why not just put these guys on trial and officially sentence them if they're guilty?
Or if it was decided that a proper reaction was to simply fire him, because his behavior wasn't deemed criminal, then Burns Strider should have just been fired. That would have been a favor to him actually.... because now that that window of opportunity has passed, he's being demonized in public instead.
Yeah I'm sick of creeps as much as anyone. But something about this story just feels blown out of proportion and mishandled.
Wondering what others think...
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Post by FruityLlama on Jan 29, 2018 18:57:24 GMT
Yeah, everyone should get a fair trial first, even Trump. Probably difficult if you're in the limelight though. I don't know much about this story but was he found guilty eventually? It could be that she didn't fire him because she thought it was fair not to until he had actually been found guilty. Just looking at a different viewpoint, but considering this is Clinton, its probably been presented and received the way has been because she is...yknow, a bit silly lets say. It could have also been used as propaganda by the right to get extreme leftists to see that she isn't God, who knows. I agree with you about blaming those who happen to be affiliated, sometimes its just a case of unfortunate circumstances and stuff....but when it comes down to Hollywood or politicians who in the same breath preach down to us all about certain things, it is infuriating and hypocritical. Meryl Streep and Oprah Winfrey for example should be ashamed given that the whole of the industry knew what Weinstein was like. Courtney Love was warning us all about him back in the 00s yet self proclaimed "feminists" and culture heroes such as those two ladies refused to disavow him. That is sickening. Speaking of uncovering loads of new creeps, did you hear about Antifa wanting to get Paedophilia accepted as an alternative sexuality? The world is nuts
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Post by Ava on Jan 29, 2018 22:15:50 GMT
Well, Trump's different, because so many witnesses came out against him at once. Sort of like other notorious sex offenders, when you see how many people are accusing them, and you know these people are not out for fame or fortune (like Larry Nassar's accusers), it's kind of a no-brainer to see they're really guilty.
But it IS important to differentiate. Trump is accused of making unwanted advances. Men in power, just like beautiful women, DO get used to people appreciating their advances. So his comment that "they let you do it" was probably factual. However, he's still a creep in my mind, because I do believe his accusers who described his behavior.
With Burns Strider, all I see is one person making an accusation of minor-sounding advances. Sounds like he should have been fired. But treated as a villian forever, and having Hillary take the blame for what HE did? That seems off.
I love Oprah and know nothing of her affiliation with Weinstein.
It's all very sticky and complicated. I think perhaps part of the problem is America's lingering puritanical streak, which makes us so protective of our bodies....I mean the double cheek kiss of some Europeans is literally so foreign to us. I've had friends from other countries who moved here and couldn't believe how cold and sterile it is, emotionally and physically.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 23:23:58 GMT
I watched the film Love Actually for the 10th time this Xmas (seems to have be an Xmas ritual in the UK) - a film that appears to anticipate Trump's sexual proclivities. It probably based the US president's character on Clinton but the scene where he sexually harasses the help rings even more true now.
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Post by FruityLlama on Jan 30, 2018 16:12:52 GMT
Ava I do see your point, yes. And I thought you made a great point about being puritanical- the West generally. I think we are still in the throes of deciding what is acceptable and what isn't, what we are comfortable with etc, whilst at the same time getting upset about everything. There is a difference between being a creep and, I don't know, asking someone out for a drink, being a bit flirty. And also this: There are quite a lot of photographs online of them. The world needs better role models. I was just reading something in a newspaper over here. It says that two more women came out against this guy for making inappropriate comments, stalking and touching though so I don't know is that similar to Trump?
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Post by Ava on Jan 30, 2018 19:46:07 GMT
You can find pictures of many celebrities kissing up to Weinstein, why single out Oprah? "It says that two more women came out against this guy for making inappropriate comments, stalking and touching though so I don't know is that similar to Trump?" I didn't see what was said. The thing is, with Trump, he's the President. A President must be held to higher standards, we NEED that as a country, and with the US being as influential as it is, the whole globe needs that. So I get cranky if someone acts as if this is a trivial matter. We need integrity, and of course a President's private life is going to come under scrutiny. A man who is worthy of the Presidency doesn't walk in on a room full of naked teenage girls, period. I can never look past the fact that he did that....if there were no other allegations against him, I'd still disapprove of him. I see no reason to lower my standards and make a special exception for this guy. linkI have a 15 year old daughter. Yes she would be traumatized by an old lecher walking in on her as she was changing.
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Post by Ava on Jan 30, 2018 19:48:20 GMT
To condemn Oprah, who didn't molest anyone, while at the same time downplaying the severity of Trump's conduct...it's hard to understand the logic there.
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Post by anela on Jan 30, 2018 20:44:32 GMT
Trump basically admitted to it on tape. Making sexual comments about a woman he was about to meet, and talking about grabbing them, and kissing them. He's talked a lot on Howard Stern's show, as well. I also would have been traumatized by anyone walking in on me like that, and he bragged about it. Teenage girls, whom he should have been looking out for, especially as he's a father, too.
With Clinton, I think it's unfortunate that she didn't fire him. I think the young woman was given a new job, not fired? I can't remember. I would have been bothered by him getting to keep his job. I think he's the one who made comments like, "I thought she was a soul mate". Well, that's creepy to someone who doesn't think the same of you. But I figured that there would be something that Hillary didn't deal with, just like NBC let Matt Lauer get away with it for years. I'd heard stuff about him getting his costars fired. I liked Ann Curry, but haven't watched morning television for years, so I didn't keep up with anything celebrity-wise.
I'm also bothered by so many people slamming people like Streep - unless she actually had a hand in getting women into those rooms with him, I don't think she has anything to be sorry for. Peter Jackson admitted that Weinstein told him lies about Mira Sorvino, and Ashley Judd, that they were difficult to work with, and so on. Mira Sorvino was in tears when she read that, a few weeks ago. Proof that he tanked her career (I remember her being the new "it" girl back in the 90's). I don't see many people slamming Jackson for not saying anything sooner, or not getting on Weinstein's case. He refused to work with him.
On that note, it does bother me that people continue to work with Woody Allen. His accuser was his daughter, and she's wondering why people overlook him, as they call for others to be fired/shamed, etc.
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Post by anela on Jan 30, 2018 20:49:40 GMT
Weinstein was an "open secret" for the last twenty years, at least. So, everyone and their grandmother knew about him - I remember Ashley Judd talking about her encounter with him, years ago. She told several people after it happened, too. So it wasn't just streep, or oprah, that overlooked it, or just ignored the rumours. Women have had to live with this sort of thing since the dawn of time, it seems. I know that I've dealt with it. My brother-in-law. And he is just Canada's version of a hippy who lived on a commune for a while, and tried to use that as an excuse to hit on me (and keep doing it). He has no money, isn't powerful in the least - except for the fact that he is a man, going by gender, not character, and he had a delusional, desperate young woman who was/is in love with him, and was ready to blame me for everything, and punish me. A man with no power, ruined my life, and my family. I can't imagine being on the receiving end of Weinstein's work. He had false things planted on gossip sites/in the news. He had big connections, and he was protected.
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Post by FruityLlama on Jan 30, 2018 22:33:04 GMT
Ava My point with Oprah was related to the whole being affiliated thing which was related to the post about Hilary. I was just making the point that people feel just as strongly about creeps as they do those affiliated because they appeared to turn a blind eye to what was apparently obvious. People like Hilary and Oprah are also role models and have responsibilities, and campaign for feminism and so on. But Oprah was just an example, I haven't got time to go through them all. I'm not singling out or downplaying, or I didn't intend to come across as doing so at least. I don't think the Trump incident is trivial either, I agreed with you about Trump in my last post. I get what you're saying and respect it. I probably shouldn't have mentioned him at all, but I was thinking along a different wavelength at the time.
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Post by Ava on Jan 31, 2018 16:43:04 GMT
On that note, it does bother me that people continue to work with Woody Allen. His accuser was his daughter, and she's wondering why people overlook him, as they call for others to be fired/shamed, etc. Yeah....Scarlett Johannson...even my husband, who was a Woody Allen fan, believed Dylan Farrow the first time I told him about it, and stopped quoting funny lines from Woody Allen movies, or referring to them at all. And he's no kind of feminist. So it's really hard to fathom how other people can ignore what Dylan is saying. Allen MARRIED one of his adoptive daughters; how is it so hard for people to believe that he got sexual with another? --- I had a unique experience this past weekend when I attended a lecture about education...the lecturer is deeply embedded in Silicon Valley culture, one daughter's the CEO of YouTube and another was married to one of the Google founders. Esther Wojcicki: There she is with James Franco. Such crazy timing for me....to bump into someone who is friends with James Franco (a former student of hers), while he's such a hot topic. Anyway they are posing in front of the mural he made at his high school. Students are considering painting over it, in protest, and a verdict is coming soon. They said that she warned her students that it might become national news, if they painted over it. So I was looking more closely at the allegations against him; it's especially interesting to compare his behavior with Allen's and ask, "Who is worse?" It seems a lot of people consider this a no-brainer: Allen is worse, therefore Johannson is really off base. The pressure is lessening on Franco, because of that public conversation. But especially in that case, I think the lesson to take home is, "Women, respect yourselves more." Franco's students were so desperate to get a foothold in acting that they were consenting to all kinds of sexual explicit behavior. From what I understand, to a large extent in his work, the whole environment was geared around sex. I'm not saying that women in the sex industry should have no rights or protection.....but I AM saying that once they step into that arena, they should be smart enough to know it's a kind of danger zone, and take responsibility for being there and assuming those risks. So if he's filming a bunch of racy scenes and he wonders if anyone's willing to go topless, and they all say No, and he storms out.....can we really frame that as "abuse" ? Yeah, he was unpleasant and pressuring, and sex was sort of involved. But look at the context. I'm surprised that even warrants mention in an article devoted to exposing his more serious behavior....and even that doesn't look too abnormal to me....a lot of men act the same way, pressuring for this or that. It's weird to see awkward situations in the headlines as if they are so scandalous, when I feel they are more like the everyday crap that most of us have dealt with almost as a matter of course. Yeah of course there are going to be mixed messages and misunderstandings. I think even the most polite and deferential men, in their eagerness, might slip up reading cues and start to get physical while the girl is actually feeling skittish. Or they resort to coercive tactics. It's been said that these famous guys are abusing their power by asking for sexual favors, but for all we know, they acted the same exact way before they had power. Oh, I got off topic.... To bring it back to Burns Strider, these guys are a dime a dozen. They're everywhere. I wonder if they will ever learn to back off, when so many woman are still conditioned into letting them get away with it, or even attracted to that kind of forward behavior. Those women are enablers by default....but if that's their natural preference, I suppose there's no turning it around.
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Post by anela on Jan 31, 2018 16:57:19 GMT
I don't know. I think he used his celebrity status to get away with things he normally wouldn't have. I've been visiting a site called Blind Gossip, every so often, since all of this started to come out (I've been there twice in the past, and avoided it, because it's so depressing, and I'm not usually a gossip fan). It bothers me, with these sites, that Weinstein got away with planting false stories for years, so I wonder how many of these stories are true, and which ones are planted.
I had no idea James Franco was doing this sort of thing, until I read it there. I read of one incident where he invited a teenager to his hotel room, which is gross. Right around the time he had a movie coming out about an affair between a teacher and a student. I normally given people the benefit of the doubt, on a lot of things, but if he knew how old she was... ew.
But men have also got away with this for years - it's always been the way. Women are insulted as they get older, and men are told they just get better, and deserve those younger women, or even girls. A few years ago, I saw a thread about Lindsay lohan, how hot she was in a movie as a teen, and how there was a countdown to her 18th birthday. Or was it 16? Ugh. Men on a message board, admitted to fantasizing about this underage actress, and looking forward to when she was legal. Not that they'd have a chance, but they all acted as though they did. It's disgusting and infuriating, and I remember the attention I got as a teenager, I wasn't even that pretty. Natalie Portman said that a radio show/host had a countdown to HER 18th birthday. She did the same thing as I did: tried to do everything to make herself look and sound as unsexy as possible.
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