Midpoint to Midpoint alignments

[lumina]

Well I had already been sharing some thoughts with Ava, but thought maybe this is an interesting topic to delve into more deeply on here. 

I was referring to Cochrane`s video, where he shared his experiences with being sick with Covid 19 and esp. with the astrology of it. 
Hstates that before looking it up he had this hypothesis that SAturn/ Pluto might be involved with Sun, Neptune, Uranus or Mars, especially the first two. He at first expected to find straight transits, but instead he found midpoint to midpoint alignments. Tr Saturn/Pluto exactly opposed to his natal Sun/Neptune (this only works with the direct midpoints, so conjunct and opposition), he seemed amazed but tentatively concluded that those midpoint to midpoint alignments might be actually very or even more powerful than he thought and secondly than isolated transits.



Sun/NEptune in vibrational astrology is apparently defined as "what you live for", and Saturn/Pluto, stripping that away. Neptune in this astrological system is obviously seen as psychic but also tangible and representing really all your dreams and visions and what gives you that sense of meaning, which also includes all creative endeavours, like concerts (well acutally this perspective seems to connect those different aspects of Neptune to each other, the creativity, the arts, the psychic stuff, the visions, the dreams etc.).



Anyway I realized for the first time WHY midpoint to midpoint alignment might be powerful or important, something I had missed before. It is the resonance, of both pictures to each other (not always in a direct aspect, but still.



Resonance is also what makes EVC`s happen (though in this case we have a resonance between the same planetary principles, and here we have mixed alignments.



In midpoint - midpoint there is even a double resonance! Every planet of each planetary picture being equidistant from each planet of the other picture. Symmetrical. If you folded this whole picture over the midpoint-axis, the planets in each midpoint would fall onto each other exactly.  


I also shared an example from P`s and my chart, as we both have Venus/Neptune (me) and Sun/Neptune (him) at 23 Sag, so they would be forming an "isoceles triangle" (another word for this midpoint alignment). it made a lot of sense to me, esp. keeping in mind that Cochrane defined Sun/Neptune as "what we live for" and I think also possibly relating to actually creating creative stuff, so that is his part, and Venus/Neptune on my part being very appreciative of that, at least i think so, or just being receptive audience. 

Anyway when I was almost falling asleep i was thinking of the day we bumped into each other and he asked me to have coffee with him, which was of course pretty unusual, or let`s say unexpected to me. and we did talk a lot about creative stuff, too. Well basically he was grilling me for my opinion on certain things. lol And then some other stuff, including showing me a weird video he had found on you tube, about some kid butchering the song "girl on fire". LOL Well to be honest I was a little like thinking to myself: "Why do you show me this?" But I guess he wanted to know if I found it funny, which I didn`t really. But at least I was honest about that (I do love the song though). And then talking about concerts, theatre and basically exchanging the different perspectives (me as an audience member, him on the other side as creative person) and somehow this ended up with him telling me about his dog, and how he got him, a very touching story, which actually did not paint him in a too great light (he got the dog prematurely, because it just was "love at first sight", but he seemed to still feel guilty about having separated him too early on from his mother and siblings, but was calming himself by also describing how much loved and part of the family this dog has become). 


I probably will erase that a bit later. lol 

Anyway this was a memorable event for me at least, and on a hunch I was looking up the transiting midpoints for that day. 

Turned out that transiting Venus/Neptune was on 23 Sag! EXACT on my own Venus/Neptune (and his Sun/Neptune) - amazing in synastric terms, but purely mindblowing how that same resonance in the sky was aligning with my natal Venus/Neptune-mp. And that is why I shared the story of that chat - I think it was very descriptive. (pretty sure there was even more going on, but I just zoomed in on that. lol) 

[Ava]

Great topic, lumina . Though I don't understand the folding paper/symmetry thing.

Would you mind listing the degrees, natal and transits, of that event you describe at the bottom of your post? Maybe I can map it out better if I know the degrees.

Apr 13, 2020 15:01:39 GMT lumina said:

Sun/NEptune in vibrational astrology is apparently defined as "what you live for", and Saturn/Pluto, stripping that away.

I'm assuming this would be pretty bad to have in synastry then. lol

Apr 13, 2020 15:01:39 GMT lumina said:

Neptune in this astrological system is obviously seen as psychic but also tangible and representing really all your dreams and visions and what gives you that sense of meaning, which also includes all creative endeavours, like concerts (well acutally this perspective seems to connect those different aspects of Neptune to each other, the creativity, the arts, the psychic stuff, the visions, the dreams etc.).

I watched an interesting video about Venus last night (I'd post it but it's Gigi Young and I post too many of her videos). But this is similar to how she describes Venus. And of course, Neptune's the higher octave. I think she will not be discussing Neptune or any planet beyond Saturn, not sure why, but she takes the archaic view. She did say that the inner planets condense much higher vibrational energy from far away, making it comprehensible and meaningful for our lives (because the planets make it dense enough to actually relate to.) This is not the best synopsis of her lesson, just sketching out the concept because I like it.

Apr 13, 2020 15:01:39 GMT lumina said:

Cochrane defined Sun/Neptune as "what we live for" and I think also possibly relating to actually creating creative stuff, so that is his part, and Venus/Neptune on my part being very appreciative of that, at least i think so, or just being receptive audience. 

So this looks universally good for synastry, would you agree?

It'd be nice to have a handy and reliable list of the standout midpoint to midpoint combinations, the best and worst.

Apr 13, 2020 15:01:39 GMT lumina said:

Turned out that transiting Venus/Neptune was on 23 Sag! EXACT on my own Venus/Neptune (and his Sun/Neptune) - amazing in synastric terms, but purely mindblowing how that same resonance in the sky was aligning with my natal Venus/Neptune-mp.

That is awesome Well I think perhaps Venus-Neptune has a special kind of potency in some respects (counteracting its peculiar weakness, in other respects.)

[lumina]

"Would you mind listing the degrees, natal and transits, of that event you describe at the bottom of your post? Maybe I can map it out better if I know the degrees.
"

my natal: 

Venus/Neptune-mp: 23°02 Sag
Venus: 6°07 Cap
Neptune 9°57 Sag


Transit

Venus/Neptune-mp: 24°41 Sag (okay, it was a bit wide. lol, it would have been exact the day before, when I actually saw him on stage, and as a matter of fact he saw me, as he was referring to me in the audience, when we met the day after)

Venus: 3°32 Libra
Neptune: 15°49 Pisces. 

of course because of the midpoint scenario, Tr Venus and Tr Neptune were equidistant from the transiting Venus/Neptune mp as well as my n Venus and n Neptune of mine. It is not a totally exact occurence here, so there might be some orb variance. 

The resonance is existent in intercrossing too. 

Tr Venus square my Venus (92°35: orb: 2°35)
my natal Neptune - Tr Neptune (95°52: Orb: 5°52)
As you can see the orb variance is about 3,5 degrees (therefore the midpoints are not exactly conjunct but within a bit more than 1°30). (half of the orb variance: with orb variance I mean, the difference in orb between those two squares). 

orb variance: 3°17

Tr Venus - my natal Neptune: 66°25 
my natal Venus - Tr Neptune:69°42 

orb variance: 3°17


That is the double cross resonance that is happening there or was happening there, and because it was in waxing/ waning phase angle it came up as a conjunction/ opposition of the midpoints (see how I reversed the order between transit and natal? That was because it one aspect was actually waxing, the other waning. transit and natal in reversing order). 

The EVC had

Venus: 19°50 Scorpio
Neptune: 27°53 Cap

so the Venus/Neptune-mp in that EVC: 23°51 Sag. 


So those 23 Sag were the symmetry axis connecting all those parts of the whole to each other, sort of the merging/ meeting point. 

 

"I'm assuming this would be pretty bad to have in synastry then. lol
"
Yeah I guess so. 

Though I have 
Saturn/Pluto 28°01 Leo
Moon/Jupiter 29°10 Aqua

well it at least shows that both midpoints are reactive to each other, not that I consider that a good thing. quite a heavy burden for the usually warm and happy Moon/Jupiter-mp to bear. 
On the other hand SAturn/Pluto stripping us of pretty much everything down to just leave what is "really essential". Just that often we have no clue what we really consider essential, deep in our hearts, until we are being brought into such situations. Probablly it really skims down my Moon/Jupiter, prevents a too expansive spreading of emotions, but on the plus sides makes me realize what really counts on an emotional level. 


"This is not the best synopsis of her lesson, just sketching out the concept because I like it.
"
I like it, too. I also think the personal planets somehow got underestimated in their power, but they are what shapes our here and now reality.


"So this looks universally good for synastry, would you agree?
"
Yes I would like to think so. But I am biased. There are of course always caveats, this one here might be too idealistic or lofty, not quite in the here and now, but hey on the flip side I might make a good muse. LOL 




"It'd be nice to have a handy and reliable list of the standout midpoint to midpoint combinations, the best and worst.
"
YEs, but of course there is little black and white. 

HOwever Sun/Venus to Moon/Jupiter or Mars/Jupiter in a synastry sounds really nice to me. Just picking any combination that just got through my head. 

Moon/Neptune to Mercury/SAturn on the other hand might come with some challenges. 
Emotional idealism meeting the "art of the possible" kind of thinking. Sounds like a possible bucket challenge with ice water to me. lol 

[lumina]

Well on 22nd february I suddenly got sick, or at least it was an annoying thing to have, relating to the digestive system. 

That day there was one very precise picture. 

Tr Saturn/Pluto conjunct my natal Uranus/Chiron with 0°00 orb
Well Chiron is often associated with Virgo (and SAg), and of course Virgo is having to do with the digestive system in medical astrology. In fact I had been having a similiar thing happening 11 years ago. 
So here the Uranus/Chiron - maybe a sudden surprising ailment? 

Also Virgo is intercepted in my 9th house - 11 years ago I got the problems after coming home from a trip to London (with Tr Saturn being exact conjunct my Mars/SAturn and then Saturn/Neptune mp and squaring Sun and Mercury). 

This time it also happened while being on a trip. However appart from Tr Saturn/Pluto being on my natal Uranus/Chiron. Tr Saturn/Pluto was also conjunct my Jupiter/Neptune by 7 minutes - not so much about physical ailments, but could there be any better picture for describing a "reality check" and obiousy crashing all too idealistic dreamy attitude. 

What I find very telling as well is that Tr Mercury (ruler of Virgo obviously) was on 10 Pisces and opposing my natal Saturn/Uranus-mp on 9 Virgo (which also squares my nodal axis exactly), this on itself would probably not have been that important, but Mercury actually got retrograde a few degrees after that and then moved over it again, and after a seemingly good phase the physical troubles were back again, but seem to have realy gone (for now) and just after Mercury had turned direct and was moving out of any orb for my Saturn/Uranus and also later in the sign SAturn/Neptune (which is a sickness midpoint anyway, well it could be, there are also nicerm anifestations) and Mars/Saturn-mp. 

Anyway it seemed to really have been timed mostly by the transiting Saturn/Pluto as I mentioned and the retrograding Mercury activating my natal Saturn/Uranus-mp in my intercepted 9th house - as I had guessed back then, the balance was being disturbed, caught in between the old and the new time, and not giving myself enough time to adjust and acknowledge that and letting go of some things (mostly thought patterns, well the far SAturn/Uranus-mp is of course on 9 Pisces, on the exact degree of my natal Ceres). 

I guess that sais it all. lol 

[lumina]

Looked up some of those in my parents synastry (rom my Dad to my Mom), focusing on the exact same degrees or at least partile orbs. 

Mercury/Uranus (=NN) opposite Sun/Venus from 10 Aries to 10 LIbra, with my Dad`s natal Mars at 9 Libra being close to conjunct my Mom`s Sun/Venus as well. 

I guess this one is selfexplanatory, and also my Mom loves my Dad`s sharpmindedness and quick wit, even though it sometimes drives her crazy as well. 


Moon/Pluto conjunct Mars/Jupiter on 24 Gemini

Moon(mars opposite Sun/Jupiter 0°32

Moon/Neptune and Uranus/Pluto opposite Mercury/Jupiter from 24 Cancer - 24 Cap

Mars/Pluto conjunct Mercury/Uranus (= Mars on 13 Virgo) - so well, they BOTH have Mars= Mercury/Uranus natally; his Mars is triggering her Sun/Venus, her Mars is triggering his Mars/Pluto

Mars/Saturn conjunct Venus/Saturn 0°30 

Saturn/Neptune conjunct Moon/Saturn on 3 Libra

Venus/Mars conjunct Venus/NN 0°51 

Venus/SN conjunct Venus/NN on 12 Sag - this one I find pretty interesting

Venus/Jupiter opposite Mars/Uranus from 13 Aqua - 13 Leo (My Dad has Venus on 14 Aqua nd Jupiter on 12 Aqua, so each of these is triggering her Mars/Uranus as well) 

Venus/NN opposite Venus/SN from 12 PIsces - 12 Virgo

Moon/Jupiter conjunct Jupiter/Node 21 Pisces
Moon/ Jupiter opposite Moon/Mars 21 Pisces - 21 Virgo

Moon/Venus opposite Moon/Venus 0°39- this one is definitely major, to0

All in all they seem to be rather evenly matched with the midpoints and some really nice ones at play. 

Well I just treat those midpoints as if they were conjunct in one chart and interacting with the other chart, makes it easier for me to interprete them. It is a bit easier if there is at least one planet in common in both midpoint pictures I find. 

[enneline]

wow lumina, thank you.

I once had the same idea and tried 1-2 charts from happy couples but couldn't see anything significant.

I will give it a new shot

[lumina]

enneline

I would be very interesting in the results. Esp. Of midpoint to midpoint within one degree, though I keep an eye on the same midpoints to each other within 2 degrees as the Composite midpoint will fall into the one degree range to each natal midpoint.

Also if a natal planet is conj. Or opposite such an isotrap, I feel this might be major.


Will check some other couples but theoretically I would like to see some midpoints with moon, Venus, jupiter involved, like in the example of my parents where my moms sun/venus mp was activated.

There's possibly also an intriguing resonance if both have the same or a complementary midpoint picture, even if not aspecting each other.



Like my parents both have mars=mercury/uranus natally. Well there is a lot of talking, debating going on. Lol

[lumina]

I checked my brother and his girlfriend`s synastry for isotraps (midpoint conj/ opp. midpoint), only within one degree orb of course. They have 2 kids, married for 3 years and been a couple for about 14 years. They seem very happy and what is maybe more important content to me. 

Just with the first glance I stumbled about a "jackpot". LOL 

his Mars/ASC 0°47 Aries
her Venus/ASC 0°16 Aries


degree-distance between: 
his Mars - her ASC: 20°02
his ASC - her Venus: 21°04

We do not really talk about the 20 degree aspect, but it is an 18th harmonic aspect, and as such should (if I counted right. lol) show up as opposition their 9th harmonic synastry. Or in this instance as conjunct to each other`s DESC. 

Since the orb here is almost 1 degree, this would show up as a wide conjunction in the 9th harmonic chart, I think, around 9 degrees. But just goes to show that this is still in a good range for a harmonic chart. 


Now let me see if I am even right about this. LOL 

her 9th DESC: 4°18 Gemini (hey conjunct my 9th ASC. lol)
his 9th Mars: 4°02 Gemini


her 9th venus: 0°24 Leo
his 9th DESC: 10°03 Leo


I probably wouldn`t go that much into depth with all of the isotraps, but there is of course some underlying geometry there (or there would not be an isotrap to begin with), this geometry could resonate with very different harmonics. It is not always a major aspect underlying, not always a minor aspect that we talk about even, sometimes it is just the same distance (could be something like 17 degrees between each for example, probably this is also a harmonic, but I do not know which one. lol)

However IF there is such a harmonic resonance, like we find the major aspects underlying or 5th harmonic or 9th harmonic or 7th harmonic, I just find it interesting. 

So here the isotrap comes from the underlying 9th harmonic synastry. Not only is the isotrap itself with the involved planets do dream for (Venus to Mars in terms of ASC basically), and not only it is right on the Ariespoint (indicating that there is an antiscia relationship between the midpointing planets in each natal), but it comes form or has a 9th harmonic vibration, the chart said to relate to marriage/ union. That is pretty cool. 


Well just the fact there was Venus/ASC to Mars/ASC is pretty cool, the rest of my post was just some astro nerd stuff I guess. lol

[12YearsABlob]

Apr 15, 2020 17:55:58 GMT lumina said:

I checked my brother and his girlfriend`s synastry for isotraps (midpoint conj/ opp. midpoint), only within one degree orb of course. They have 2 kids, married for 3 years and been a couple for about 14 years. They seem very happy and what is maybe more important content to me. 

Just with the first glance I stumbled about a "jackpot". LOL 

his Mars/ASC 0°47 Aries
her Venus/ASC 0°16 Aries


degree-distance between: 
his Mars - her ASC: 20°02
his ASC - her Venus: 21°04

That is so cool..! What does that become in the composite chart?

[lumina]

Apr 15, 2020 18:08:42 GMT 12YearsABlob said:

Apr 15, 2020 17:55:58 GMT lumina said:

I checked my brother and his girlfriend`s synastry for isotraps (midpoint conj/ opp. midpoint), only within one degree orb of course. They have 2 kids, married for 3 years and been a couple for about 14 years. They seem very happy and what is maybe more important content to me. 

Just with the first glance I stumbled about a "jackpot". LOL 

his Mars/ASC 0°47 Aries
her Venus/ASC 0°16 Aries


degree-distance between: 
his Mars - her ASC: 20°02
his ASC - her Venus: 21°04

That is so cool..! What does that become in the composite chart?

Nothing. At least not necessarily. There would only be a "consequence" for the composite on the base of the synastric midpoints, if they were the same planets involved in the midpoints. (that is one of the reasons why the same midpoints conjunct/ opposite each other, even in a 2 degree orb, justify a lot of attention, as then the composite midpoint will fall onto the natal midpoints as well; this is not the case with "mixed midpoints".)

[12YearsABlob]

Oh, right, okay - I thought that individual distances would factor in like geometry (adding triangles, etc.). Just a passing thought, and I guess I didn't think it through.. Heh Thanks for clarifying.

[lumina]

well the problem is that we do have two sets of Mars and Venus, making the composite placement. And his Venus and her Mars do not necessarily have to replicate the individual distance, that is present in his Mars and her Venus.


their compospite has

Mars: 1°41 Aqua

Venus: 23°41 Pisces

ASC: 10°48 Aries

[lumina]

Picking some other isotraps in their check up:

her Moon/ASC 10°51 Cancer
his Pluto/ASC 11°50 Cap


her Moon/Node 2°31 Leo
his Moon/ASC 3°13 Aqua

her Neptune/Pluto 1°30 Sag
his Neptune/Saturn 1°32 Sag
- not really a happy go lucky combination or even a romantic one, but an interesting combination of planetary energies


her Venus/Saturn 9°41 Cap
his Sun/Saturn 9°34 Cap
- well also not one of the romantic ones, at least not the romance novel kind, however I ofund that in my parent`s check up as well, and I think it is interesting that each one has a personal planet matching up with Saturn in this midpoint alignment. it is probably quite workable, esp. for a comitted relationship that has some longevity already.


her Sun/Saturn 21°25 Cap
his Mars/Saturn 20°34 Cap
same as above, and also quite complementary, each ones`s Sun/Saturn matching up with the others Venus/Saturn (for her) or Mars/Saturn (for him). Well the common thing is of course Saturn, so that Sun-Mars or Sun-Venus combo is happening only on the basis of Saturnian energies, but it still looks more complementary than difficult to me (I would interprete it differently if it was for example her Moon/Venus to his Saturn/Pluto, because there would be not that shared planet in the midpoints, and while this could be either very happy or not so much, what is probably more important is that, the two softest most emotional and obviously personal planets are "forced" in a coexistence with the harshest reality-check-planets possible. That would for most people be just too much heaviness and reality checks (though I could see how this might be extremely karmic as well).



her Venus/Neptune: 2°22 AQua
his Jupiter/aSC: 2°19 Aqua
his Moon/ASC: 3°13 AQua

- not a common planet in the midpoints, but I still love that one. lol It just looks so soft and romantic and idealistic.


I did not list all their midpoints, but just picked some.

Also this one here is interesting

her Mercury/Venus 19°15 Pisces
his Mercury/Venus 21°15 PIsces

not in the one degree orb, that I was checking up, but as I said, I look up also 2 degrees if it is the same midpoint, and here it is.
This of course MUST show up in the composite as well.

composite:

Mercury: 16°49 Pisces
Venus: 23°41 PIsces

Mercury/Venus-mp: 20°15 Pisces

and therfore the compospite Mercury/Venus-mp is in a one degree conjunction to each one`s Mercury/Venus in natal. Here in this instance - coincidentally - composite Sun is at 20°59 Pisces, so the composite has the midpoint picture Sun= Mercury/Venus.
That Sun is there is not based on the Mercury/Venus-mp in the natals of course, but also interestingly enough his natal Sun on 15 PIsces is conjunct composite MErcury, and her natal Sun on 26 PIsces is conjunct composite Venus, so I guess it is easy to deduce who is expressing which energy more strongly.

[12YearsABlob]

Apr 15, 2020 20:00:33 GMT lumina said:

well the problem is that we do have two sets of Mars and Venus, making the composite placement. And his Venus and her Mars do not necessarily have to replicate the individual distance, that is present in his Mars and her Venus.

Yes, I was thinking along the lines of having symmetric planet pairs equi-distant (i.e., I was wondering if his Venus and her Mars also followed suit)... But of course, they don't have to, just thinking out loud..

[lumina]

that would be cool and definitely very important, but I cannot imagine that to happen too frequently. So many variables having to fall in place for this. but if that happens. WOW