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Post by Ava on Mar 15, 2019 14:09:11 GMT
Thanks to you both (@theunknown & athena) - this is an interesting but sad conversation. I've never understood how Culkin has remained in the spotlight so many years. Just saying, that is weird to me, how lasting his fame has been, when he's most famous as a child actor. I think he'll never come out against Jackson, if only to protect his goddaughter Paris from extra trauma.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 16:53:31 GMT
Ava I was also pondering this yesterday. Macauley "retired" from acting when he was 15 in 1995, blockbusters are no longer attached to his name at that point on his IMDB even though he does some small media appearances here and there. Yet it still seems like he's a household name - ask anyone from Generation X, a millenial, to a Generation Z kid who he is and they'll know, so it seems like Macauley still permeates so much of the culture. Just like you, I wonder why that is? I actually have tickets to go see him live on Tuesday, something in regards to a podcast he now has. I'm curious to see what his energy will be like (just in general) I agree that I don't believe he'll ever come out against Jackson. He's doubled down too many times. Not to mention it seems that Wade and James only came to this realization when they became fathers (in some bizarre twist of fate they both became first time parents in 2010) and Macauley is still childless, so..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 18:04:53 GMT
It does feel like he won’t come out but t-pluto is squaring his Pluto now. T-Neptune is creating a tsquare with his Neptune- Jupiter square. (Rulers of moon) Transit mars is also opposite his Uranus....
Who knows? I hope he’ll come out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 16:30:35 GMT
Jordan Chandler's noon chart, @theunknown you're completely right that Michael never went for fire/air Suns or Moons in his victims The NN/Pluto DW is eye catching right off the bat, this of course makes itself present in their composite chart How Michael and Jordan came to meet - the author is Vanity Fair's Maureen Orth, who is writing this as everything is unfolding in the early 1990's. She uses the name "Jamie" for Jordan to protect him as he's still a minor while these articles are being written.
** Trigger Warning ** Sensitive Subject Enclosed Source
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Post by Ava on Mar 16, 2019 16:55:37 GMT
Thanks for posting, athena. So with that pattern involving the luminaries, it looks like he was going for "chemistry" (sounds weird to say chemistry with a child) and not just looks. Curious to note that it was heavily patrolled by security guards. Much of the online commentary finds the mothers almost as guilty as MJ but as a fellow parent, I have some pity on these mothers and try to see what they were actually thinking. Could be, they considered MJ "vetted" because with so many people around him all the time, security guards and maids, surely SOMEONE would have figured out there was a problem and reported it, if there actually was a problem? It's hard even now for people to understand how he got away with it, when the police or FBI raid of his house reportedly turned up nothing. I watched an interview with his maid where she said that his bodyguards threatened to hire a hit man to slit her neck if she testified against Michael in court. I can imagine there was a lot of silence under threat. Even now, coming out with a story against MJ is dangerous if you are sensitive, because according to YouTube Like/Dislike counts, it appears the public is still on MJ's side and quick to deem Safechuck and Robeson greedy opportunist liars who committed perjury. It's heartbreaking to see people condemning victims, without even trying to understand what it was like to be so young, in their position. Tiny person versus world's most famous entertainer and his staff. If Macaulay Culkin does come out against MJ he will face the same backlash at first but hopefully he has enough clout on his own with the public, that he could turn the tide.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 16:57:43 GMT
Jordie has sun in Capricorn and Capricorn although silent is a controlling, opinionated sign. MJ probably saw the Scorpio moon and think oh... this kid is like Safetruck. Safetruck even now seems very sweet, overly sensitive almost. I love his voice, and how he slowly analyzed all of his emotions. I personally feel like Wade was in deeper than Safetruck but he also is more driven, analytical, ... Mercury at home and mars at home. Once he got through it he was just done. Safetruck however is someone you want to hug and save. And Wade comes from working class family. His mother was greedier, much less connected to his child. Tho Safetruck hasn’t forgiven his mother, the anger isn’t as intense (or maybe the Pisces sun and Taurus Rising masked it). Maureen Orth wrote that Wade’s father was also molested as a child. There’s this sense of survival I can relate to as a mars-Pluto person. www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 17:05:29 GMT
Ava it’s not true to say it’s chemistry. You can go back to the ppl he dated or married, MJ dated Paula Abdul (gem), Lisa Presley is an Aquarius, Debbie Rowe is a sag. He briefly dated Madonna, a Leo. He was fascinated with Britney (sag/aqua) Also one can say chemistry but remember we attract ppl who complement our psychological state of mind. That’s why ppl who have controlling issues come for the submissive types. I highly doubt he didn’t prey on the quiet ones.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 17:27:40 GMT
@theunknown Yes, absolutely. Right off the bat Jordan has this intuitive sense that no, he doesn't like this. Sure you're my idol but this is wrong. I'm going to pushback and let you know, I'm not threatened by your celebrity. I've read some of the court documents with him in it, being interviewed by a P.I., and I'm struck by how preternaturally intelligent he is for a boy of 13. SourceIt's hard to say who was in "deeper" with Michael - my intuitive sense is that James got to experience a very intense lovebombing and subsequent grief. At the time when Michael starts abusing James, there is no other boy, and there wouldn't be for two years. It's just the both of them. Not to mention that Michael "courted" James continuously for an entire year before the abuse began, and they went on tour together. As per Wade's account, the abuse started right away with him (the day after seeing him in California for the first time). Not to mention there were other boys around when Wade's abuse with Michael began - James, Brett Barnes, Jordan Chandler, Macauley Culkin, etc. It's almost like some sick polyamourous relationship where Wade has to fight for affections from the very beginning, whereas James was number one for a long period of time until Michael begins phasing him out for "new and younger" models. That seems particularly traumatic to me. However Wade does some more psychologically fortified, with a much better support system and drive, than James has (with the exception that Wade's mother is pretty terrible, Stefanie Safechuck doesn't seem as cunning in comparison to Joy Robson). I do believe that Michael was looking for chemistry.. Debbie Rowe had admitted she's never had sex with Michael. Lisa Marie was a cover up for the pedophilia claims (he married her a few months after the trial with Jordan was paid off) and they divorced in short order. I think Michael only expressed interest in Britney because Wade was dating her at the time and Michael wanted to relate to Wade in an attempt to convince him that Michael still has some kind of interest in him, to keep that codependent lifeline alive just in case Michael ever needed him again. He was clearly a preferential pedophile, not one of "circumstance". Something that sticks out with me from the documentary, when James is playing that recording of both of them on the private jet coming back from Hawaii before the abuse began. James said that the recording is difficult to listen to because he can hear the attraction in his (James') voice, as well as the attraction in Michael's voice, and that the chemistry was building between them. Excerpt from an interview with Ken Lanning in the book 'Be Careful Who You Love': Ava I am also trying to empathize with the mothers though I am not one myself. It's clear that Michael needed to groom the parents first in order to get better access to their sons. The lovebombing, the incessant phonecalls, getting precious "access" to Michael when he was so unavailable to everyone else, coming over to their houses, showering the families with houses, cars, shopping trips and in the case of Wade's mom, a permanent visa in the United States. I saw a comment on Macauley's instagram a few days ago, someone saying, "you know no one will judge you if you come forward, no one will blame you for anything". I feel bad for him because even to this day Jordan Chandler and Gavin Arvinzo declined to be in the documentary - everyone needs to face their trauma at their own time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 19:15:11 GMT
12YearsABlob I don’t mean he’s done that way. I mean there’s a break from I’m gonna protect you to I’m gonna turn myself around and make something out of this terrible situation and protect others. You’ll never completely get over your own trauma. He’s clearly not over it. But the shift is more abrupt than James’. athena wow you’re deep in this stuff. Thank you for being such a fountain of information. I think there’s some chemistry with the kid but also a calculative side to it. How were his children consummated do you know? I know he never had sex with them but he had a long relationship with Lisa. I don’t think they are just bodies used for a purpose along. They were ppl he did have some connections with.
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Post by Ava on Mar 16, 2019 19:23:13 GMT
athena , Thank you for posting all that. So interesting. I find it curious that so far I haven't seen Jordan's parents being blamed as harshly as the other parents, because it's assumed they did the right thing. They took MJ to court. But they had left their child alone with MJ the exact same way other parents did, they were just fortunate to have a child who would tell them what happened. And these other parents were unfortunate because their children did not tell them. I think James was most unfortunate because the whole thing with MJ was some kind of sincere attachment, and he didn't tell because he probably didn't want it to end. Yet of course he wouldn't want to be self-blaming now. So there is more incentive for him to blame his mother rather than own up to his role in it (he could have told her, but he didn't...in that sense, he almost set her up for her disgrace now, though I don't blame him, it's just the way it turned out). If he was the first victim then there was no warning sign of lawsuits coming in advance, and if it took a whole year for the abuse to begin, the mother must have increasingly trusted MJ through that time. It's not to say she was a good mother doing the wrong thing, I have no opinion and didn't see the film yet. I don't even mean to give her the benefit of the doubt. I'm just saying, I like when the conversation accounts for all the factors and isn't just the same battle cry over and over, against the mother. Mothers have to let our children go out into the world, and if they are always the ones to blame, then every sex abuse scandal in church is also somehow the mother's fault, because sex abuse in church is so common, it's almost like we should be on high alert, and ditto for the Boy Scouts, and so on. Like, never let your kids out of your sight. But again, in cases where there are a LOT of people around, as there were with MJ, and also with someone like Larry Nassar, parents are going to think, "This is okay, lots of people are watching, protections are in place." But I feel like society is just now learning that that's really not the case, and we learn that sex abuse is something that everyone hates talking about, because it's so disgusting to think about and so hard to prove it. Edit: Ugh sorry this was so long. 2nd edit - shortened, but still long
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 20:16:59 GMT
@theunknown According to this article, they used artificial insemination.. though as someone that also works part time in a fertility clinic, genetically they could have just used donor embryo (someone else's eggs + someone elses' sperm) if they also didn't want to use Debbie's DNA, so in that case she could have just been a gestational carrier. True, it probably is a combination of chemistry and the ability to have a pliable, controllable victim on Michael's part
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 20:31:24 GMT
athena , Thank you for posting all that. So interesting. I find it curious that so far I haven't seen Jordan's parents being blamed as harshly as the other parents, because it's assumed they did the right thing. They took MJ to court. But they had left their child alone with MJ the exact same way other parents did, they were just fortunate to have a child who would tell them what happened. And these other parents were unfortunate because their children did not tell them. I think James was most unfortunate because the whole thing with MJ was some kind of sincere attachment, and he didn't tell because he probably didn't want it to end. Yet of course he wouldn't want to be self-blaming now. So there is more incentive for him to blame his mother rather than own up to his role in it (he could have told her, but he didn't...in that sense, he almost set her up for her disgrace now, though I don't blame him, it's just the way it turned out). If he was the first victim then there was no warning sign of lawsuits coming in advance, and if it took a whole year for the abuse to begin, the mother must have increasingly trusted MJ through that time. It's not to say she was a good mother doing the wrong thing, I have no opinion and didn't see the film yet. I don't even mean to give her the benefit of the doubt. I'm just saying, I like when the conversation accounts for all the factors and isn't just the same battle cry over and over, against the mother. Mothers have to let our children go out into the world, and if they are always the ones to blame, then every sex abuse scandal in church is also somehow the mother's fault, because sex abuse in church is so common, it's almost like we should be on high alert, and ditto for the Boy Scouts, and so on. Like, never let your kids out of your sight. But again, in cases where there are a LOT of people around, as there were with MJ, and also with someone like Larry Nassar, parents are going to think, "This is okay, lots of people are watching, protections are in place." But I feel like society is just now learning that that's really not the case, and we learn that sex abuse is something that everyone hates talking about, because it's so disgusting to think about and so hard to prove it. Edit: Ugh sorry this was so long. 2nd edit - shortened, but still long I was actually just reading up on Jordan's parents.. apparently his mother, June, was enamored with the whole lifestyle that Michael was providing in order to have access to her son. She was divorced from her husband, Evan Chandler, who immediately had suspicions. Why his shackles were raised and not the other parents, I'm not sure. But Michael wanted to take Jordan on a world tour, his mom June was on board with it, and Evan pretty much took Jordan to a psychologist where Jordan confessed that he was being abused. As per California state law a psychologist has to report any kind of abuse a minor is experiencing to the police - though apparently Evan did not know this at the time. So the 1993 trial actually started on accident.. who knows if Evan would have really pursued this otherwise? In the case of Stefanie I do feel for her. Imagine the most famous and children-friendly celebrity taking an interest in your child when they previously have not really done this with other children. Like a Tom Hanks or something. Seems overly suspicious that alarm bells would ring for the most part. I suppose James' blames his mother due to the fact that it is taboo for children to sleep in the bed of a grown adult without any supervision around. Which makes sense. But you have Michael Jackson coaxing you, assuring all will be fine, more security measures surround him than God himself, your child is happy as a clam and begging you to reconsider. Seems like a lot of effort to be the bad guy in that situation, and for what end? Making your kid unhappy, taking away his "best friend"? He really was an evil genius, that much I can say. I was wondering, hello, what about James' dad? It's sort of implied in the documentary that Michael could do no wrong in the eyes of James' father and he's not mentioned much in the documentary. I agree that it seems unfair that Stefanie has to suffer the brunt of this blame. Michael just sort of "fell into" their lives, whereas Joy Robson pretty much chased him around the world with (self-admitted) stage mom instincts. Joy doesn't even want to hear about the details of the abuse, refuses to watch the final cut of the documentary, seems pretty unapologetic. I imagine it's difficult to keep continuously asking your child, "is everything okay? Did he hurt you?" only to keep receiving the same "no" over and over again. Of course Michael coached them continuously over this exact situation and how saying anything other than "no" would lead to both of their lives being ruined. It's a tough situation for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 20:59:24 GMT
I personally feel like the parents of child actors are well.... sorta like the parents of baby beauty pageants if you ever watch the documentary on youtube related to that. Something about making your kid into this star. To me, as a very ambitious person, I would not make decisions for my child, who hasnt become a full person yet. Miley, Selena, and all these people who became famous as children are not something I want for my child if I have one. I am not a parent yet but I cant make such decision for them. I can support their passion by letting them go to camps and kid programs but not throw them into a commercial. John Legend for example was allowed to make his own decisions, grew up, went to college and got his EGOT any way. What's the rush? Why shove a career down the throat of your kid? James wanted to take advanced math class and his parents pulled him out because of Michael. Really? James has taurus rising and Taurus risers are known to have somewhat selfish self-centered mother and James' story resonates to me as a Taurus rising. The leo 4th house They keep saying that this is not a regular situation, when you are enarmored by a god/celeb.... Not me. Sorry. Maybe that leo IC/Aqua MC is coming out. It's just like if a celebrity wants to date me, I wouldnt go for it. Doesnt matter if they own 5 castles. They also keep saying MJ was abused as a child so he turned out that way. Nahhhh the rate for people who were abused as children to abuse in adulthood is the same as the ones who weren't abused. I'm tired of the excuses. I can't imagine letting my own little cousin hanging out with a stranger. You are gonna come home with me. That's beyond my imagination. If MJ was to show up at my house for my kid, I'd find that very intrusive. Sorry, you are a star, my house is still my house tho.
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Mar 16, 2019 21:01:39 GMT
@theunknown , Aah you mean, like stage moms? Hmm, that's a strange dynamic for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 23:39:06 GMT
thegrio.com/2019/03/18/michael-jackson-family-leaving-neverland-oprah-betrayal/During the interview, Oprah said we all are gonna get it (attacks from the Jackson) and that’s when I knew she produced this interview to sorta protect them because she’s big enough. And that still is not enough to go against all these MJ due-hards on radio and such who don’t even bother to listen to the victim. It’s actually the first time I have such an appreciation for Scorpio mars, seeing it both in Wade and Oprah I know Culkin won’t come out this time but I hope astrology is right, that it sent something to shock his system and he’ll eventually come out. He’s bigger than any of the kids molested by MJ. Saturn is squaring his Pluto as well but he has a late libra mars so the square to mars won’t happen until 2-3 years from now. Libra mars needs a team before coming out. It doesn’t head to troubled water by itself.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 1:38:50 GMT
Blah that article is so enraging. Maybe they should consider that the documentary is so masterfully crafted that anyone watching can see that these two men are traumatized beyond belief that even Oprah, once a prolific MJ supported, can even be swayed by its truth.
I'm reading a book right now called Be Careful Who You Love by Diane Dimond, an investigative journalist who was assigned by Jackson molestation trials in 1993 and 2005. She even attended Gavin Arvizo's (the second accusers) wedding in 2013. It's an incredible read filled to the brim with details that seemed to have gotten lost with time. James actually features twice in the book, with situations that are clearly bizarre that a normal person would not put a child through..
Okay, why the HELL would a 29 year old man ask a limo driver to bring a 10 year old child to a city 90 miles away from the child's family home at night without any of his parents? Why incessantly call him throughout the ride? Why give his father a million dollars? Man all of this is just nuts and it was under our noses the whole time..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 2:32:13 GMT
athena possibly why Safetruck hasn’t forgives his family... he’s not as accusatory as Wade. Wade seems more direct, ... Safetruck is more accommodating but deep down that scorp moon knows his family took all that money. He still beats himself up over liking jewelries and MJ using it against him
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 2:58:25 GMT
athena possibly why Safetruck hasn’t forgives his family... he’s not as accusatory as Wade. Wade seems more direct, ... Safetruck is more accommodating but deep down that scorp moon knows his family took all that money. He still beats himself up over liking jewelries and MJ using it against him Totally, that's a great point about the jewelry. It's tragic because it's not even his fault that a child would love jewelry yet he makes this expressions like "I was an idiot" after telling the story. Lots of self blame going on there. I was thinking about this thread earlier and I was like, maybe James hasn't forgiven his mother because she pulled him out of his AP classes because Michael said James didn't need school, he just needed to become a film director? My mother sabotaging my education and trusting a celebrity with it like he's gonna be around forever would also make me feel really bitter too.
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Post by Ava on Mar 19, 2019 16:28:34 GMT
Again, thanks for the interesting read above. Sorry to go a bit off topic... When I was out shopping yesterday it seriously seemed like every other song was Michael Jackson. Society can be so full of itself, so full of hubris and complacent, it seems to dig its heels in and deny what is really happening rather than adjusting to new information. My Aqua Mercury loathes this kind of bowing to the Old Order, to the point of absurdity and mindlessness. Are all the radio stations owned by conglomerates or something? I know most media outlets are owned by 6 companies (or that was the case, last time I checked). Still one likes to hope that independent DJs might have options and a real voice. I would love to hear something like, "In light of the fact that Michael Jackson is considered a pedophile criminal by many, many people, we will no longer play his music." Just like Kevin Spacey and many others were fired without being found guilty in court. When will they "fire" Michael Jackson? It's so triggering to me, honestly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 21:56:51 GMT
Ava I have noticed the same thing! There's one radio station here, K-EARTH 101 who seem to be AGGRESSIVELY playing Michael Jackson songs the past two weeks. I was also convinced it was some contrarian DJ but I wasn't aware that radio stations were owned by 6 conglomerates though that makes sense since television is similar..
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