t5
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Post by t5 on May 9, 2022 7:30:17 GMT
The above image shows the charts of my mother and her one-minute-older (non-identical) twin sister. I do not know their actual times of birth, but do know that they were born just one minute apart ... and my mother was the younger of the two. Hence, I have chosen a birthtime that produces the best example of the point of this thread - which is "can an error of just one clock minute in the birth time really make a difference in the life of the natal chart owner?" So ... the two natal charts above differ only in the degree location of the house cusps - with my mother having her Ascendant at 0Cancer11 and her sister's being at 29Gemini57 ... thus creating TWO sets of interceptions for my mother, but only ONE set for my aunt. Both charts have Aries/Libra intercepted in 11th/5th, with Leo/Aquarius duplicated on the cusps 0f 3rd+4th and 9th+10th houses ... but only my mother has Gemini/Sagittarius intercepted in 12th/6th, with Cancer/Capricorn duplicated on the cusps of 1st+2nd and 7th+8th houses. This did indeed make a difference to the husbands they married (and the married life they experienced) - but can anyone see how?
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 9, 2022 9:27:22 GMT
Anyone attempting to "see how" this additional set of interceptions made a difference will quickly realise that it cannot be done (meaningfully) from a cold reading ... because the issues of intercepted-signs/duplicated-houses are rooted in childhood (and may have been sown in a past life). So, the first step in analysing them is to obtain some information from the chart-owner about his/her childhood ... and that would result in my mother providing the following information (from which a warm reading can then be attempted) :-
"My mother (ie. the grandmother of t5) became a widow with a one-year-old son in 1915, when her husband was killed in the Great War of 1914-1918. That left her unable to feed the two of them unless she became the live-in housekeeper for another (and thoroughly unpleasant) man, who subsequently became the biological father of myself and my twin sister in 1921. Because the two of us were bastards - with a different surname to the man that our mother was co-habiting with - we were subjected to daily bullying by our peers (and most adults in our society/environment). This bothered me more than my Gemini-Rising sister, so I tended to be the one who found herself physically fighting others to defend the honour of our mother/family."
But, does that information bring us any closer to seeing how that additional set of interceptions caused my mother to marry a man who was very different to the one her sister married?
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Post by Ava on May 9, 2022 11:18:57 GMT
Intriguing, t5"But, does that information bring us any closer to seeing how that additional set of interceptions caused my mother to marry a man who was very different to the one her sister married?" Those aren't their real birth times, though? Aquarians tend to have unique tastes, so maybe that helps explain it.
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 9, 2022 14:42:28 GMT
Intriguing, t5 "But, does that information bring us any closer to seeing how that additional set of interceptions caused my mother to marry a man who was very different to the one her sister married?" Those aren't their real birth times, though? Aquarians tend to have unique tastes, so maybe that helps explain it. Their actual birthtimes are unknown, but these birthtimes produce the one-vs-2 pairs of intercepted-signs/duplicated-houses that I suspect impelled them to experience different paths in their marriages. Later in this thread, I shall refer to the natal charts of two of my school friends ... each born (with an unknown time) on 15th April 1949, in Leeds (UK) - where the movement of the Moon creates a 64th harmonic relationship in one chart but not in the other. However, that involves a clock time difference of more than one minute.
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 9, 2022 15:20:51 GMT
"But, does that information bring us any closer to seeing how that additional set of interceptions caused my mother to marry a man who was very different to the one her sister married?"
This question brings us to step 2 - where my mother's interceptions/duplications are expressed as the following formula ;_
Now it becomes clearer that my mother's issue involves her feeling of self-worth (Cancer/2nd house); being judged by others (Capricorn/8th); the desire for a partner who understands her fears (Moon in Capricorn/7th) and the need to project a powerful-but-caring image (Pluto in Cancer/1st).
But, how did that result in her choosing a marriage partner who was very different to the one chosen by her sister?*
[ * Her sister married a man in a white-collar profession. They were happily married; had one daughter; enjoyed a UK-middle-class lifestyle and were financially comfortable/secure. My mother married a coalminer. They were happily married; had 8 children; enjoyed a UK-working-class lifestyle and struggled financially. ... But, what made my father the "right" man for my mother to marry (bearing in mind that she had been previously engaged to a well-known bandleader who would have provided her with a marriage similar to her sister's)?]
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 10, 2022 15:25:24 GMT
We know that my mother's issue involves the 7th house, so step 3 is to look at the synastry between her and my father.
He was born on 24th June 1913 (time unknown) - with Pluto at 29Gemini38, and Sun somewhere between 01Cancer52 and 02Cancer49. ... These are conjunct my mother's 0Cancer11 Ascendant degree - strengthening her 1st house Pluto's ability to project a powerful-but-caring image.
As it happens, my father had known my mother since she was 4 years old (so understood her fears and lack of self-worth, having observed her being judged by others on a daily basis). And, by the time they married (in 1941), he was a well-known amateur boxer and had established a reputation as "a man to not make an enemy of". So, once it became known that my mother and father were an "item"/team, she ceased to be bullied by others - and went on to become the much loved Gemini/Sagittarius social butterfly that is "promised" in her natal chart.
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 11, 2022 6:57:04 GMT
To complete the story of these twin sisters, we perhaps need to also consider the interceptions + duplications that are in both charts (rather than only my mother's). ... These can be expressed as the following formula :-
The Leo Neptune/Aquarius Sun issue here was that both sister's were so devoted to their husbands that they were psychologically ill-equipped to live without them.
Thus, when the older sister's then-middle-aged husband died (leaving her financially well-provided for) she became the victim of a conman/"lover" who left her after stealing everything she had/owned - a betrayal/realisation from which she "escaped" only by losing her mind.
And after the death of my 79 years old father, it took my mother just 20 months to go from being a physically healthy (and socially active) woman that was expected to live well into her 90's to someone who had 3 heart attacks and eventually died of heart failure two weeks after her 73rd birthday.
So, neither sister managed to resolve the issue of of their Leo/Aquarius duplicated cusps and Aries/Libra intercepted signs.
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 11, 2022 14:29:19 GMT
So ... let's now consider the case of two unrelated males born on the same day (15th April 1949) and UK City (Leeds). Again, the time is unknown - but the chart posted above is for a time of 23:44 ... because that gives an 11th house cusp in Libra, which a one-minute-later time moves to Scorpio - and I wanted to produce a chart that has the Aries stellium in the 4th house of psychological foundations.
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 12, 2022 6:11:18 GMT
The actual birth times of these two males is unknown, but the posted chart has it's Aries stellium in 4th house (of psychological foundations) with Aries duplicated on the cusps of both 4th + 5th houses - and (in my opinion) the resultant issue of it's intercepted signs + duplicated houses applies to only one of these two males (K, a close friend of mine whom I knew from the age of 3 until he died at age 48). ... The other is S, a friend whom I have known since the age of 8 and now lives in Australia - having emigrated from the UK at age 21.
In the context of the thread title, a one-minute-later birth time for S produces a chart that has Scorpio duplicated on the cusps of the 11th + 12th houses - but both charts have Virgo/Pisces intercepted in 9th/3rd house. However, the duplicated Libra/Aries in "K's" posted chart affects all those born in the 14 clock minutes period from 23:31 to 23:45 - but my assumption is that S was not, and thus does not have K's Aries/Libra 4th/10th house duplications.
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 12, 2022 7:19:17 GMT
As children and adolescents, these two boys had very different upbringings/environmental-experiences :-
S was the only child of two middle-class parents who taught him the value of "hard work + moderation in all things" - so he was never at odds with those in authority; worked hard at school; went to University and then emigrated to Australia (where he successfully pursued a career in Engineering).
However, K was the youngest child of two working-class parents - with 5 siblings that were 3, 4, 15, 16 and 17 years older than him. So, he was not subjected to firm parental discipline and had access to things which other children did not (such as cigarettes, and observing his 3 oldest siblings interacting romantically with the opposite sex). Hence, he was a heavy smoker at the age of 3; was successfully "hiting" on females from the age of 8; drank alcohol long before he was legally able to do so; believed "hard-work + moderation = a wasted lifetime" and died of Cancer at the age of 48.
No surprise then that K's intercepted signs + duplicated houses can be expressed as :-
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Post by Ava on May 12, 2022 11:47:20 GMT
t5 I love reading these biographical notes...fascinating. However, did your friend K die at 42 or 48? Also, could you describe the function of intercepted and duplicated houses? Is there a "deficiency" of the signs of the missing house cusps and an excess with the duplicated house cusps? For example, the way I have my chart rectified, both the 1st and 2nd house cusps are Leo, the 7th and 8th house cusps are in Aquarius. Too much Leo and Aquarius?
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 13, 2022 5:55:36 GMT
t5 I love reading these biographical notes...fascinating. However, did your friend K die at 42 or 48? Also, could you describe the function of intercepted and duplicated houses? Is there a "deficiency" of the signs of the missing house cusps and an excess with the duplicated house cusps? For example, the way I have my chart rectified, both the 1st and 2nd house cusps are Leo, the 7th and 8th house cusps are in Aquarius. Too much Leo and Aquarius? K died at 48. Thank you for pointing out the 42 error in my comment (which I have now corrected). I am not sure what you mean by the "function" of intercepted signs + duplicated houses. My astrological experience with them indicates that their purpose is to highlight a specific issue brought into the current lifetime by the chart owner - and that this issue can be expressed by a formula, which works with all intercepted signs + duplicated houses. ... [An issue in the lower pair of duplicated house axes is adversely affecting the higher pair of duplicated houses, in a way that (until resolved) will prevent the most effective use being made of qualities of the intercepted signs (and any natal planets located within them). Moreover, that issue will involve any natal planets located in the duplicated houses.] The general view of the astrological community is indeed that there is a deficiency of some kind in the intercepted signs and an excess of some kind in the duplicated houses ... which I agree with, but prefer to express/explore via the formula. And there, my experience is that the "excess" invariably turns out to be caused by a Pisces-Age value/belief that needs to be updated to an Aquarius-Age value/belief ... but never gets questioned/challenged by the chart owner, because the childhood-conditioned Pisces belief seems to be "(obviously) what any decent human being would do". ... [For example, my Virgo/Pisces duplicated 12th/6th houses resulted in a never challenged belief that "one should always put the needs of others before one's own" - which brought me close to a physical breakdown at the age of 42 (note the connection here to the "42 error" in the death of K). And, to prevent that breakdown, I had to modify my childhood-conditioned belief to "one should always put first the greatest need of the group" (which, at the time, was the need for me to remain healthy/able to help others). So ... in your case ... perhaps an outdated/never-challenged childhood-conditioned Pisces-Age value/belief in Leo 1st + Pisces 7th that is adversely affecting 2nd + 8th houses.
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Post by Ava on May 14, 2022 12:22:03 GMT
Much obliged, t5. I am not sure what you mean by the "function" of intercepted signs + duplicated houses. How do these chart features function? What is their function? I consider the chart functional, where each component exerts an influence or determines something. My astrological experience with them indicates that their purpose is to highlight a specific issue brought into the current lifetime by the chart owner - and that this issue can be expressed by a formula, which works with all intercepted signs + duplicated houses. ... [An issue in the lower pair of duplicated house axes is adversely affecting the higher pair of duplicated houses, in a way that (until resolved) will prevent the most effective use being made of qualities of the intercepted signs (and any natal planets located within them). Moreover, that issue will involve any natal planets located in the duplicated houses.] So the formula is what you wrote there in brackets? Sorry if I'm not following you right. So ... in your case ... perhaps an outdated/never-challenged childhood-conditioned Pisces-Age value/belief in Leo 1st + Pisces 7th that is adversely affecting 2nd + 8th houses. Leo 1st, Aqua 7th. Thanks t5, that is something to think about. Well my childhood gave me the impression that I don't actually matter. Hard to put in words without sounding ungrateful for the love I was given and opportunities provided for me. *Edit Not sure how to look at Aqua in the 7th from the same lens, except it's no wonder an ego malfunction may want to overcompensate by looking TOO much to the outside and to other people, and seeking out someone really special/brilliant/Aquarian who could single-handedly reverse the negative script of my youth. I do see that. (Especially with Venus conjunct Neptune, a tendency towards hero-worship.) Then it would figure the 8th house would suffer if I got the 7th house "wrong." If I'm relying on someone for egoic remediation, that fixation could keep things superficial. Anyway thanks for the food for thought, t5, I appreciate it! Pls don't quote
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t5
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Post by t5 on May 15, 2022 7:10:07 GMT
Ava So, the childhood/adolescence conditioning here was "Ava should be seen, but not heard"? (The 1st/7th issue) "I'm just sincerely emotionally absorbed with people who have nothing. I am them. My good friends who witnessed my childhood understand this about me." ... May 16th 2021 12:37pm post on astrogarden.proboards.com/thread/2567/vibrational-astrology-24h-poleaxe-figure (The effect on 2nd/8th houses) Taurus, Scorpio, Uranus and North Node intercepted ... preventing you from MOST-EFFECTIVELY using their qualities, until the 1st/7th issue is/was resolved.
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Post by Ava on May 15, 2022 12:19:53 GMT
I guess in mid May when the sun is transiting on my south node I am most likely to whine about my past? LOL But thanks t5, it's nice you remembered what I said the first time. "Taurus, Scorpio, Uranus and North Node intercepted ... preventing you from MOST-EFFECTIVELY using their qualities, until the 1st/7th issue is/was resolved." That makes perfect sense to me.
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Post by Ava on Feb 26, 2023 12:57:14 GMT
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