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Post by Ava on Jun 20, 2021 16:41:37 GMT
Thank you kindly for these explanations t5 . Ava ... The Image I see in your aspect lines of your natal chart is :- A Mars-Jupiter-Neptune-Pluto doorway in which a skydiver is standing ready to jump ... with the Sun-Moon-Jupiter-Mars door not having yet fully opened for her to do so. I love it. And you guessed right, no way am I jumping out of a plane. Historically I did have grave reservations about New Age interests and the occult, fearing myself because I wanted to move to Sedona, Arizona, and live around people who believed in crystals and aliens. That would be the equivalent of jumping through the open door (my Mystic Rectangle). And ... in the house chart ... A pendulum fixed at Mars, swinging between Sun and Pluto ... located between a red square and a blue triangle. [However, there is a second pendulum fixed at Jupiter - swinging between Pluto and Sun.] Yes, brilliant. Tempus fugit. Between life (sun) and death (Pluto)...what should I do? (Mars question.) What should I learn and expand upon? (Jupiter question.) But ... how would you interpret the difference scores in your Dynamical Evaluation Table? I was surprised my numbers are all low. Honestly this is not clicking for me yet. You wrote: * "A minus difference indicates that NATURE has gifted the person with more of the quality/element than the world/NURTURE will demand/require from him her. ... A plus difference indicates that the world/NURTURE/houses chart will demand more from him/her than NATURE/the natal chart is able to provide." * "So ... can you see how the +23 difference score for Earth in Sylvester Stallone's Table indicates that others see/saw him as having an ungrounded/unrealistic view of himself?" I think so? Assuming the system is true and applying these basics, I would have thought, he felt pressure to meet their demands for more earth, to "stand and deliver" (in this case, he substantiated the legend of Rocky..and rock is an earth word. Also made a fortune.) But boxing is fire (?). I'm curious to know what his -1 Fire score means here. It will help me interpret my own -1 Air (as it's not in the "healthy" 5-25 range). Insights appreciated.
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Post by t5 on Jun 20, 2021 17:40:40 GMT
Ava ... Sylvester Stallone's minus fire score made him a rebellious misfit in childhood ... He had good reason to be angry about his early life conditions, but channelled that anger into working out in the gym. And working out gave him the physique that enabled him to become an all-action-hero movie star.
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Post by Ava on Jun 20, 2021 20:37:04 GMT
Ava ... Sylvester Stallone's minus fire score made him a rebellious misfit in childhood ... He had good reason to be angry about his early life conditions, but channelled that anger into working out in the gym. And working out gave him the physique that enabled him to become an all-action-hero movie star. -1 seems like such a mild condition, though? If his score was -40 or something, I could understand the correlation better...extreme score, extreme manifestation. Or, -1 is extreme?
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Post by t5 on Jun 21, 2021 5:57:24 GMT
Duplicated reply deleted.
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Post by t5 on Jun 21, 2021 5:58:44 GMT
Ava ... Yes ... If the difference score is within the range of +5 to +25, the stress is healthy because it encourages personal development. ... So, minus 1 is 6 points below the minimum score for healthy stress. Thus ... my earlier explanatory comment that "Minus scores can indicate a feeling of not-belonging, because we have something that others either do not want or do not see. Thus, the person may experience rejection; be the black sheep of the family or have suffered neglect in some way. So, "a score of +5 is already a repression - and even a small minus score should be considered as potential repression or neglect". Nevertheless, this unwanted energy is an untapped resource within the chart owner which - once recognised - can be used for personal growth/development." Sylvester Stallone's -27 difference score for Air gives us a clue about how your -1 difference might manifest. ... In his case, he had difficulty in getting others to see him as an intellectual/someone capable of writing the "Rocky" script. ... And, it is clear from his appearances on UK TV Chat Shows that he found it emotionally painful during childhood/adolescence to be viewed by the authorities as just another kid (from the slums of New York) going nowhere in life. ... In effect, he learned early in life that getting others to see him correctly/"as is" was never going to be easy.
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Post by Ava on Jun 21, 2021 12:46:56 GMT
Thanks t5I guess that gives me something to think about.
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Post by t5 on Jun 22, 2021 8:01:35 GMT
Ava ... the next step would be to examine the individual aspect-patterns/planetary-pictures in the natal chart (such as your Sun-Moon-Jupiter-Mars UFO figure**) ... And the images/names of those that were researched/explored by the Hubers can be seen at www.amazon.co.uk/Aspect-Patterns-Colour-Joyce-Hopewell/dp/0955833914?asin=B007XIZLR4&revisionId=&format=2&depth=1 [ **Would it be ok to comment specifically on your UFO figure here, Ava? ... And to consider the effect of its Moon-Jupiter semisextile being between two planets located at the Low Point of their houses?]
Extract from Aspect Pattern Astrology, by the Hubers"The UFO is a sizeable trapeze that leaves a lasting impression. it acts like a sphinx in front of a pyramid that attracts inquisitive looks because of the secrets it is hiding within it. ... This person can take the path of individuation as a loner or help others on their way. The green qcx near the centre shows that inner consciousness is in touch with deeper existential questions. This enables her to create from the heart and do important things for others. The blue-green outer shell behaves like a chameleon that changes colour to match the environment. For the person has a sensitive and harmony-seeking persona and surprises people by the stark contrast if she suddenly speaks very clearly to clear up misunderstandings or to get to the heart of the matter. Deep in the heart of this figure there is a powerful store of energy, and the two intersecting red squares demonstrate its invincibility. this person wants to manage the most difficult things and looks for special tasks that no-one else can handle. with her will she can achieve anything. She looks for opportunities to develop and checks out all information, gets to the bottom of things and (if possible) tries things out. This also enables her to convince other people. The UFO quadrilateral consists of two medium and two large Learning Triangles. The motivation comes from inside, as internal criticism or dissatisfaction causing/prompting a large thinking step. The semisextile involves the search for further information. The thinking processes are connected on both levels and lead to satisfying experiences that are released as substance. This also ensures personal development." (So, from this extract, can you now see why that sun-moon-jupiter-mars door in the overall/right-brain image has not yet opened far enough for the skydiver to jump?)
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Post by Ava on Jun 22, 2021 14:15:26 GMT
t5 This is easily one of the best and most insightful readings I've ever received, about my natal chart. Thank you so much. I feel SEEN. If only I could have a series of therapy sessions centered on these exact observations. (I'm aware that the reading is mostly positive; I hope I could embrace a negative reading with the same sense of objectivity. But honestly I am all too aware of my flaws, so it's nice to see something in the other side of the scale for once. ) "....this person wants to manage the most difficult things and looks for special tasks that no-one else can handle. with her will she can achieve anything. She looks for opportunities to develop and checks out all information, gets to the bottom of things and (if possible) tries things out." True. In another conversation I told you I have certain thought processes that seem to move my kundalini energy; those thoughts are usually about achieving special tasks. I'm no prodigy, I'm a low-energy person, I haven't much to say for myself professionally. But this is part of my identity. I have done and can do out-of-the-ordinary things. "The blue-green outer shell behaves like a chameleon that changes colour to match the environment. For the person has a sensitive and harmony-seeking persona and surprises people by the stark contrast if she suddenly speaks very clearly to clear up misunderstandings or to get to the heart of the matter." Absolutely right. It surprises but also disturbs people. It's also been the case where fluctuations between the two states backfires on me, as one might imagine. It's affected my personal life, academic life, interior life. People/teachers/exes have resented me for not being able to get to the heart of the matter all the time. They can't rely on me for the most incisive or inspired answer; I might sound dull and prosaic or I might put a new twist on things. I think people don't understand how difficult it can be to switch gears; often it seems to depend on external factors. In other words, I am not all-around convincing. In some ways, I wish I were. I just don't know how to morph into that, and I don't know if I want to. I enjoy the chameleon state a lot. "(So, from this extract, can you now see why that sun-moon-jupiter-mars door in the overall/right-brain image has not yet opened far enough for the skydiver to jump?)" I think so. Would you say it matches what I just wrote? I think the "jump" would entail total commitment to one way of being? "[ **Would it be ok to comment specifically on your UFO figure here, Ava? ... And to consider the effect of its Moon-Jupiter semisextile being between two planets located at the Low Point of their houses?]" I would love that, thank you. I've always wondered about the relationship between my moon and Jupiter. I thought, maybe I feel there's an association because Jupiter was the first planet my moon formed a conjunction with after I was born. I will check out your amazon link later, as I need to get going. Thank you again.
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Post by t5 on Jun 23, 2021 5:26:43 GMT
Ava ... It does indeed match what you wrote. ... When you were born/entered the current lifetime, you were not yet "ready" to make that total commitment - and the pendulums in the house chart symbolise the changes required to "become ready" in the current lifetime. ... However, as in the case of Sylvester Stallone, you choose the extent to which you change/respond to the demands placed upon you by nurturing**. [ ** 1. Difference scores of +5 to +25 = "psychologically-healthy "con-forming" ... +25 upwards = "over-forming" ... below +5 = "under-forming". ... +15 = the ideal score, at the mid-point of +5 to +25. 2. Over-forming makes us to feel that we "belong" and under-forming makes us feel that we "do NOT belong" (in the family/group/society that raises us during childhood and adolescence). 3. The Huber research concluded that "a score above +35 indicates too much conditioning (often resulting in material success but eventually creating some kind of psychological crisis). And a score over +65 is "likely to be channelled into survival of one kind or another". ... However, they did not research/identify the minus scores that indicate too much under-forming or/and the need for survival-channeling. (Thus leaving astrologers to determine this via discussion with the chart owner, since only he/she has a detailed knowledge of his/her life experiences.)]
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Post by t5 on Jun 23, 2021 5:37:41 GMT
Ava ... The image above shows how the Hubers intended their approach/system to be considered by astrologers in 5 steps/layers of analysis and interpretation :- 1. The Centre Circle 2. The Aspect Circle 3. The Planet Circle 4. The Zodiac Signs Circle 5. The Houses Circle In Aspect Pattern Astrology, they explain their thinking on this via the following example (of a theatre performance) :- "If we imagine a theatre stage on which a section of the revolving stage is visible; this represents the 12 houses, and the backdrop represents the Signs of the zodiac. Every actor is a planet, the script is the aspect pattern and the director is the core personality. They perform a play, which requires certain facilities. We see a section of the revolving stage with the backdrop. The actors perform the play according to the script (aspect pattern). If one actor is missing, in the horoscope this means recasting on the horoscope. If there is no planet present in a House and zodiac sign, there is no action. With no planets as tools, we can neither react nor act in this area of life. In this section of the backdrop, we can hardly make out what kind of play is being performed. In an empty House and Sign, the spectator (the environment) can only see minimal, stereotyped reactions. For the director, this scenery without action is not an interesting area of life. Only the actor (planet) can act. The backdrop (Signs of the zodiac) cannot replace him. They only form a frame for the action. Conclusion : a really accomplished play can only be performed when all five layers of the horoscope are working as a whole." So far, on this thread we have considered only the first two layers (Centre Circle +Aspect Circle) ... but looking specifically at your UFO enables me to now explain how the other 3 layers are considered/used in the Huber System.
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Post by lumina on Jun 23, 2021 6:08:31 GMT
This is pretty interesting.
According to that, I apparently belong into the 3rd category.
build up: +66 Capricorn build up: +62 Taurus
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Post by t5 on Jun 23, 2021 7:17:11 GMT
lumina ... Yes ... Cardinal+Earth = +66 and Fixed+Earth = +64 ... All three of those difference scores are above +25, and close enough to +35 to warrant being reflected upon. However, all of your difference scores are outside the +5 to +25 range ... and the mutable "under-forming" might actually be the most challenging (as it indicates that you are naturally/inherently much more flexible than others consider you to be - and the minus score is high enough to make this very frustrating for you). [Also ... your 3rd house is large enough for Jupiter to be considered as conjunct its Low Point - and note how small Pisces/Virgo + Aquarius/Leo become in the House Chart. ... (So, can you see the windsurfer in the aspect lines/pattern of the House Chart? And, if yes, is she travelling towards or away from Jupiter?]
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Post by t5 on Jun 23, 2021 9:13:29 GMT
Ava ... 1. Extract from Aspect Pattern Astrology, by the Hubers"The UFO is a sizeable trapeze that leaves a lasting impression. it acts like a sphinx in front of a pyramid that attracts inquisitive looks because of the secrets it is hiding within it. ... This person can take the path of individuation as a loner or help others on their way. The green qcx near the centre shows that inner consciousness is in touch with deeper existential questions. This enables her to create from the heart and do important things for others. The blue-green outer shell behaves like a chameleon that changes colour to match the environment. For the person has a sensitive and harmony-seeking persona and surprises people by the stark contrast if she suddenly speaks very clearly to clear up misunderstandings or to get to the heart of the matter. Deep in the heart of this figure there is a powerful store of energy, and the two intersecting red squares demonstrate its invincibility. this person wants to manage the most difficult things and looks for special tasks that no-one else can handle. with her will she can achieve anything. She looks for opportunities to develop and checks out all information, gets to the bottom of things and (if possible) tries things out. This also enables her to convince other people. The UFO quadrilateral consists of two medium and two large Learning Triangles. The motivation comes from inside, as internal criticism or dissatisfaction causing/prompting a large thinking step. The semisextile involves the search for further information. The thinking processes are connected on both levels and lead to satisfying experiences that are released as substance. This also ensures personal development." (So, this extract tells us how the aspect lines/energy of the UFO manifests ... and we now need to consider how this "backdrop" is used by the four planets/"actors" which are "performing" with it.) 2. Moon and Jupiter at the Low Energy Point of their houses, but high energy point of their signsThe high energy point of each house is always at the cusp, and the low + balanced energy points are identified in the Astrodienst Additional Tables. However, for signs, the low energy point is always at the cusp; the high energy point is always between 8 to 18 degrees (and strongest at 11degs30mins). So, from these we can see that the energy of both Moon and Jupiter is strong by sign but at the low point in their houses. This is accounted for in the (complex) calculations of the Dynamical Evaluation Table - so we need not concern ourselves with the maths, or principles/thinking involved in the weighting of these influences. However, we do need to be aware of how this affects the behaviour of the chart owner ... since he/she is likely to strongly express/display the qualities of the sign, but be unnoticed/ineffective in the house occupied by the planet/"actor". ... Thus, the Moon/emotions will be very Piscean and Jupiter/optimism will be very Aries but the chart owner will feel (and probably be) unheard when emotionally responding to the views/values of others (8th house Moon) or displaying enthusiasm for mind-expanding actions (9th house Jupiter). And this will be reflected in the difference scores of the Dynamical Evaluation Table - with the person having more of the sign quality than is recognised/"wanted" by others. In effect then, the Moon and Jupiter in this UFO figure feel (and probably are) unheard/unseen by others. And will try to overcome this by pushing their message harder ... which others will perceive as attention-seeking, causing them to deliberately/intentionally resist the pushing. [Hence, an alternative-and-effective way of overcoming this issue needs to be found.] 3. Affinity of Planets and Aspects in UFO FigureHard planets work best in hard aspects, and soft planets work best in soft aspects. ... So, Sun/Mars/Saturn/UranusPluto work best in (red) square and opposition aspects; Moon/Mercury/Venus/Jupiter/Neptune work best in (blue) sextile or trine aspects and (green) semisextile or qcx aspects. Hence, in this specific natal UFO, only the Moon-Jupiter semisextile is 100% "comfortable in its own skin" ... and those two planets are handicapped by being at the Low Energy Point of their houses. In essence though, this results only in the Sun and Mars creating the discomfort required to impel the Moon and Jupiter to find an effective way of dealing with their Low Point issues. (So, note how the red and green aspects in the aircraft door of the "skydiver" image combine with the red Pluto-Sun square and blue Pluto-Mars trine "door-opening-mechanism".) 4. The Green Semi-sextile and Qcx aspectsThe Hubers refer to the semi-sextile as "the small thinking step", and the qcx as "the large thinking step". They differ in that the semi-sextile is seeking only to understand something (perhaps out of intellectual curiousity) but the qcx is seeking increased (self and environmental) awareness. ... So, if not fuelled by the Sun-Mars qcx, the Moon-Jupiter semi-sextile would be content just to know/understand that these two soft planets are at the Low Point of their houses. ... However, that qcx is actively seeking personal development - and thus impelling the semi-sextile to "resolve the issue". [For information ... Note that the semi-sextile is a dotted line from Jupiter and a solid line from the Moon. The Hubers use this half-dotted/half-solid line to indicate "one-way" aspects - where the orb of the dotted-line planet (Jupiter) exceeds the maximum allowed, but the orb of the solid-line planet does not. ... Hence, the Moon is influencing Jupiter - but Jupiter is not influencing the Moon.] 5. Developing The Low Point Planets"It is important to recognise that Low Point planets, however strong by sign, cannot be used successfully in the outer world until a full understanding of the nature of the energy of that planet has been developed. Because this is a process of discovery it needs to be self-enlightening as well, potentially self-indulgent in the early stages. To make full use of the energy may require many years of study and hard work. The process can be likened to a flower seed inwardly seeing itself as the fully developed bloom. Nobody else can see this until the growth and development processes have been gone through, and there really is a beautiful flower that everyone can accept and admire. ............ Someone with LP Jupiter in the 9th house cannot become the fount of ideas that can benefit others until that person has developed her own philosophies and understanding of the world - and this takes time. Such people may feel that they have the ability to put their own views to the world but the world will not listen, recognise or accept those views until they have been worked on and are ready to be broadcast." (Extracted from Astrological Psychology - The Huber Method, published on behalf of the Astrological Psychology Association.) 6. The Roles Being Played by the Planets/"Actors" in the UFO Figure
The psychological drives of these four planets/"actors" are ... (Cardinal) Sun = will : (Mutable) Moon = emotional reactions : (Cardinal) Mars = action and (Mutable) Jupiter = growth. Sun is the (Capricorn) manager, with a 6th house message to deliver : Mars is the (Gemini) messenger/11th house "enforcer" : (Pisces) Moon is an empath, who has difficulty being "heard" by (8th house) others and Jupiter is the (9th house) high-minded but inexperienced (Aries) teacher seeking personal growth/development. And the 6th house message of the Sun is ... ?
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Post by Ava on Jun 23, 2021 12:56:55 GMT
Thank you t5! Quick question ~ I understand you're not finished commenting, but I thought this might be simple to answer ~ Is it safe to say, in light of what you wrote, that the SIGNS of my moon and Jupiter come through pretty clearly, but the HOUSE energy does not? Therefore, my emotions seem "Pisces" but people miss the Scorpionic/8th house level; my expansive Jupiter energy seems enthusiastic and "Aries" but people miss the 9th house educated-background part of it?
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Post by lumina on Jun 23, 2021 15:29:40 GMT
t5 I honestly don`t know. Am I flexible? I donĀ“t view myself that way, or lets say it is a challenge, but I am working on it, and usually surprise myself that I can pull up these abilities to adapt to circumstances when they are necessary and demanded of me, however I am not really seeking them out. I`d say the move is towards jupiter, just intuitively, and yes, can see the windsurfer.
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Post by t5 on Jun 23, 2021 16:25:22 GMT
Ava ... Yes. Does that accord with your experience? lumina ... So, you do not feel that others see you as being less flexible/adaptable than you actually are?
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Post by Ava on Jun 23, 2021 19:33:13 GMT
Ava ... Yes. Does that accord with your experience? Yes!
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Post by Ava on Jun 24, 2021 4:16:35 GMT
Re-reading what you wrote t5 , I see I basically just repeated it, but the idea is very new to me, it's like I had to try it on in my own words to internalize it. This: "...the chart owner will feel (and probably be) unheard when emotionally responding to the views/values of others (8th house Moon)" I think people understand that my empathy is real, that's in the domain of Pisces, so it comes through. I might meet a new person at a party and spend the whole night listening to their life story. They wouldn't tell me if I seemed emotionally unresponsive. I've had issues with supreme awkwardness when it comes to communicating serious/8H matters...people may not take me seriously, so I FEEL like I need to resort to amplifying the message, even though by now I know that's futile, too. In some cases I've just refused to talk. It feels passive aggressive, ie "Not going to bother trying to explain this to you, you won't be able to hear me." However, if they really NEVER get curious about the matter, and I don't bring it up either, it can sink into the past without much controversy. I can be low-maintenance (again, Pisces) and just chalk it up to the oddity of human nature, that things play out this way.
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Post by t5 on Jun 24, 2021 5:06:19 GMT
Ava ... Note that I am currently in the process of adding to my comments on your natal UFO ... BUT feeling (perhaps correctly) that "people may not take me seriously" is a very accurate/appropriate description of the Low Point issue. I have natal Mercury at 15Scorpio00, with a 2nd house Low Point of 16Scorpio24 ... and I often expressed views/ideas in workplace meetings that were seemingly "not heard" - even to the point where I was left wondering if I had actually spoken out loud or only imagined I had done so. ... And later, someone else at the meeting would put forward the exact same view/idea as his/her own - firmly (and genuinely) believing that he/she had 'plucked it out of the air'.
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Post by lumina on Jun 24, 2021 11:44:10 GMT
lumina ... So, you do not feel that others see you as being less flexible/adaptable than you actually are? I don`t know. If so, it has never been an issue for me, as I have simply never thought about it before.
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