t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 12, 2021 7:32:29 GMT
Some 9 years ago now, whilst on the astro.com forum as EJ53-2, I opened three threads - in an attempt to explain/clarify how to use the Huber Charts which can be calculated there. Thread 3 (on the Lifeclock) can be found at forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1347079749 ... and that contains links to threads 1 + 2, respectively at forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1345959191 + forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1346125120At the time, the creation of 3 simultaneous threads on a single topic (Huber) was seen as spamming by the forum owner. So, that attempt never went beyond those introductory threads ... and, since then, the astrological community's interest in the Huber has system has declined considerably. Perhaps a major reason for the decline has been the failure of its advocates to adequately explain that the Huber System is intended to be used ALONGSIDE the system used by the astrologer/student, rather than instead of it. [As a right-brain stimulator, prior to undertaking our normal left-brain analysis, interpretation and synthesis of a chart.] Would there be any value in attempting to now do on this forum what I was unable to do/complete on the astro.com forum ... or is the Huber System now something that belongs firmly in the past?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2021 8:56:15 GMT
t5 , we have a range of unique bits of knowledge/systems discussed here and it is your prerogative to post what you prefer. However, it may not generate interest, if that is your aim, because of its complexity and depth. My understanding of astrology, for example, is pretty rudimentary and I tend to focus only on mainstream astrology. There is only so much I have head-space for. Ava , lumina , what do you think?
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Post by Ava on Jun 12, 2021 11:26:24 GMT
I consider this Advanced Astrology so I'll move it there. Still a basic overall explanation and links to articles would be helpful. I was confused skimming through the threads you posted t5. Need more basic info to get started. I like for people to feel free to post whatever astrology topics they're interested in. Even if no one answers here and now, someone might come across it later and pick the topic up again.
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Post by lumina on Jun 12, 2021 12:50:03 GMT
I used to look into Huber Astrology (quite) a bit. There were things I found very interesting, especially their aspectfigures and the click charts, however there were also things that were too black and white for me, or maybe not even that, just didn`t "spark" for me, granted part of it might have been that if there is one housesystem I absolutely do not believe in, it is the Koch houses, that they use exclusively. (I read some very informative articles many many years ago, why the Koch houses are actually based on a wrong calculation, but I forgot the details by now. lol) HOwever the house charts as compared to the normal chart is something that I had actually thought of in my little brain a few years before encountering Huber astrology, I had then pushed it out of my mind, just thinking it was one of those random ideas my weird mind seems to cook up now and then. So I thought it was very interesting to find it again in this branch of astrology (the other thing that I sort of had been cooking up in the silence of my mind, was progressed synastry, I know I know Paul Westran invented it, at least that is his claim. Which is actually not true, but anyway, he certainly did the most extensive research on it that I am aware of. But I have read about it in other books before, and even before that had been having this sudden thought in my mind: "Hey if individual progressions are so important,a nd describe where we are at a certain point in time and what we experience, wouldn`t it make sense to compare it to another`s current progressed situation to see what is going on NOW when the individual NOWs cross?" Of course I put it on the back shelf, crazy thoughts like this come and go in my mind. This one actually has the habit to always come up again and by now it part of my astrological every day life. The house charts have a good chance to end up there too. However having said that, there is the difficulty for me to answer the question: which house system? Definitely not Koch for me. But which other? Placidus? or equal? Not whole houses for me either. You know questions like these, they come and go. lol) Anyway so in short, yes, leave it here, I certainly will read, I am curious about your findings. I cannot say how much Invested I get in this, at least right away, as I am also in a busy period at my job, and true to Gemini time I am a little flitting through ideas and moods. very changeable and moveable at the moment.
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Post by Ava on Jun 12, 2021 13:19:47 GMT
For me the word Huber connects to Huber House Chart. Is that relevant to this topic? --> If anyone doesn't know, that's a technique that assumes a planet a certain number of degrees into a house has some association with a planet at the same degree of the house's associated sign. For example, my sun is 5° into the 6th house, so it would be analogous to a 5° Virgo sun. My moon is 16° into the 8th house so it's taken for a 16 Scorpio moon (in some way that I don't fully grasp). These charts are available at astro.com if one chooses Huber House Chart for the Chart drawing style...click on the PDF and you'll see each planet's house (convert that to its corresponding sign) and house degree listed. As for your previous threads, t5 , I was initially tripped up by the lifeclock being divided into 6-year increments with no explanation. Does that relate to the nodes? (Roughly 18 year increments...divided by three to match the decanates of a sign?) What happens after 72, theoretically?
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 12, 2021 16:38:02 GMT
The key to using the Huber System is to let the computer to do the calculations ... and allow the right brain to intuitively interpret the charts. For example, our usual view of the natal chart is subjective/seen from the birth location on Earth. This worm's eye view of the heavens distorts the ecliptic, resulting in unequal house sizes - with the signs each being 30 degrees. Thus, the Huber House Chart is an attempt to view the chart objectively - with the houses each being 30 degrees, and the signs being of unequal size. These two views of the same natal chart then have to be considered in the light of the Huber hypothesis that the House Chart provides an objective view of the person (ie. how he/she is seen by the world), whilst the subjective chart shows how he/she actually is (when born). Hence, comparing the two charts enables us to see how the person's nature will be impelled (by nurturing) to change. Ava ... The Lifeclock is divided into 12 houses, and the ascendant moves through these at the rate of 6 years per house. Thus, it progresses faster through large houses - spending longer in aspect to planets in small houses than those in large houses. And, after completing its first 72 year cycle through the natal chart, it begins its second cycle after returning to the ascendant degree. The reason/"logic" is simply that it accords with the empirical evidence produced by the Huber's research - although 6 years is probably derived from their Jesuit belief of "give me a child until he is 7, and I will give you the man". Moreover, they based the Lifeclock on Koch Houses solely because it produced the most accurate results in their research. (However, I am not aware of them ever attempting to test the validity of the Koch House system itself.)
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Post by whisperix on Jun 13, 2021 9:22:15 GMT
Long time ago Hajo interpreted my chart with the Huber technique and it did resonate. At that time I read somewhere in the internet that some astrologers use the Koch house system for older people with a yod and this is true for me as well. Personally I did some research on the AP because I wanted to find out the personal trigger point of a yod bearer. I found nothing .
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 15, 2021 7:48:42 GMT
whisperix ... The Hubers gave Albert Einstein as an example, when the age point passed over the Uranus apex of his natal Yod configuration. In his autobiography, he states that this was the age at which he first laid hands on physics and science books. However, they stress that INNER transformations are created by the passage of the AP over a natal Yod apex (rather than an external event) - so it was actually the change of focus for Enstein that was the event. On reflection though, it seems to me that something should have happened when my own AP passed through the zodiac degree that turns my natal Uranus-Chiron/Sun into temporary Yods ... So, I shall look at that now and give feedback here asap.* *EDITED TO ADD ... I have now ascertained that my Age Point passed over my natal Scorpio/3rd Sun-Chiron on 7/8th April 1961; my natal Gemini/9th (on MC) Uranus on 9th November 2002 and the natal Capricorn/4th zodiac degree that turns this Uranus-Sun/Chiron qcx into a temporary yod on 17th May 1972. My grandmother was killed in a road accident on 7th April 1961 : I passed the final exam to become a fully-qualified UK public sector accountant in May 1972 : and November 2002 was when I first began participating in astrology forums. Hence, it is no surprise to have subsequently discovered (via my astrology studies) that this natal Uranus-Sun/Chiron qcx "promises" to take me out of my childhood-conditioned comfort zones and into the uncomfortable realm of be-yourself Uranus.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 15, 2021 8:46:12 GMT
whisperix ... I have now ascertained that my Age Point passed over my natal Scorpio/3rd Sun-Chiron on 7/8th April 1961; my natal Gemini/9th (on MC) Uranus on 9th November 2002 and the natal Capricorn/4th zodiac degree that turns this Uranus-Sun/Chiron qcx into a temporary yod on 17th May 1972. My grandmother was killed in a road accident on 7th April 1961 : I passed the final exam to become a fully-qualified UK public sector accountant in May 1972 : and November 2002 was when I first began participating in astrology forums. Hence, it is no surprise to have subsequently discovered (via my astrology studies) that this natal Uranus-Sun/Chiron qcx "promises" to take me out of my childhood-conditioned comfort zones and into the uncomfortable realm of be-yourself Uranus.
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Post by Ava on Jun 16, 2021 13:32:21 GMT
The key to using the Huber System is to let the computer to do the calculations ... and allow the right brain to intuitively interpret the charts. I can imagine how certain astrologers could embark on this task without much fuss or controversy. But I'm struck with how completely vague the directions are. Obviously a person will need to bring SOME knowledge of astrology and chart-reading to the exercise. If I showed my 11 year-old a Huber chart he would draw a blank. So my question is, can we at least name which basic, left-brain facts need to be mastered before one can perform this rght-brain exercise? If we can't name ANY ground rules, I don't know how to proceed, either with the conversation itself or the chart-reading exercise.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 18, 2021 17:37:21 GMT
Ava ... Sorry for not replying earlier to your June 16th comment. The Huber system is used alongside whatever system we normally use to analyse, interpret and synthesise a chart. ... Hence, in Astrological Psychology - The Huber Method, it states :- "One of the most important things we can do when starting to look at a chart is to do simply that - to look. Setting aside and perhaps even temporarily 'forgetting' any astrology we already know, the first way into the chart is via the senses, the eyes and the intuition. ... We can train ourselves to look for an intuitive picture or image in the overall aspect structure which fills the large central area of the Huber Chart. Very often the essence of the person is contained within this area of the chart, and through developing the intuition we can gain a sense of the person simply by looking at this central core of the chart and absorbing and reflecting upon the pictures or images we see there." So ... ground rule 1 = Look at the pattern formed by the aspect lines in the centre circle of a chart of someone you know well, and allow an image to form ... in the same way that our right-brain might form an image from looking at the clouds in the sky, or the flames in a fire. ... Then, attempt to relate that image to the personality of the chart owner.
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Post by Ava on Jun 18, 2021 21:21:07 GMT
Thank you, t5. "We can train ourselves to look for an intuitive picture or image in the overall aspect structure which fills the large central area of the Huber Chart." What if there is nothing in the large central area because the person has a bundle chart? I must say, the Huber chart seems to make certain patterns stand out more.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 19, 2021 4:46:20 GMT
Ava ... Sylvester Stallone/Rambo/Rocky was born with a bundle chart - at 7.20pm on 6th July 1946, in New York. ... In the central area aspect lines/picture of his Huber Natal Chart (posted below), I see a Mars-Pluto action-hero person paragliding from the top to the bottom of a Moon-Venus-Uranus mountain. And, I also see a red figure tethered (by the right ankle) to a Mars-Pluto post ... standing against a (blue) triangular wall, and being tortured (by having to hold a weight above his head). Yes. That is intentional, as is the use of the colours red (to depict energy); green (to depict thinking); blue (to depict substance/stability) and orange (to depict integration). ... Hence, ground rule 2 = the colours, shapes and direction of the aspect patterns indicate the person's motivation.* [ * linear shapes = cardinal motivation : triangular shapes = mutable motivation : quadrangular shapes = fixed motivation. ... So, Sylvester Stallone is mutable-cardinal ... ANY kind of action hero (mutable), but the movie has to have a purpose/message (Cardinal mountain/wall).]
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 19, 2021 7:32:54 GMT
Ava ... Sylvester Stallone's Huber Charts are also a graphic illustration of the difference between the natal and house chart ... since we can see clearly in the house chart image below how Scorpio/Taurus+Sagittarius/Gemini have increased in size and Virgo/Pisces have become smaller ... with this clearly changing the aspect line/picture in the two charts. So ... the very-strong blue mountain/wall triangle in the natal chart has become two average-strength red-green-blue triangles in the house chart, and the Mars-Pluto person has disappeared completely. Hence, he saw/sees himself very differently to the way he is seen by others in his environment ... which is probably why he had to insist that the "Rocky" movies could be produced ONLY if he played the part of Rocky. Moreover, we see that confirmed in the Astrodienst additional tables for the natal chart. ... Where the Dynamical Evaluation Table has scores of -14 for Cardinal motivation; -27 for Air behaviour and +23 for Earth behaviour ... indicating that others saw/see him as too driven/Cardinal and 'not intellectually grounded' (lacking Earth, and having too much Air).
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Post by Ava on Jun 19, 2021 15:04:10 GMT
How neat t5! I love the paraglider in Stallone's chart! What a fun reading. Is that first chart above what astro.com has named a "Huber style" chart? I think my Huber style chart looks like a broken wagon wheel, while the Huber Houses chart gives me a yod (!!!) with an almost 10° quincunx between Uranus and Mars. How is that possible?
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 19, 2021 16:27:06 GMT
Ava ... It is the first chart below the one Astrodienst call "Huber Style" ... Huber Style = Natal Chart : Huber House = House Chart. But the Additional Tables for the natal/style chart include two that always need to be referred to. (So, I need to now explain how they are used) ... These are The Dynamical Evaluation Table and The Additional House Data. ... In Sylvester Stallone's natal huber chart tables these are :-
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Post by t5 on Jun 19, 2021 16:36:16 GMT
Ava ... I have to now sign off the forum for today ... but will explain the two tables (and give my right-brain interpretation of the images in your natal + house charts) asap tomorrow.
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Post by Ava on Jun 19, 2021 17:07:14 GMT
Much obliged t5. I'll try and learn more in the meanwhile, so I don't pester you with too many very basic questions. Hope you have an enjoyable weekend.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 20, 2021 5:39:51 GMT
Ava ... 1. Explanation of the Dynamical Evaluation TableThis is the Huber method of weighting a chart for elements and qualities/modes. However, the calculation of them is complex - so best left to the computer, as knowing how they are calculated does not help us to actually use them. Essentially though, the table shows us the Cardinal/Fixed/Mutable and Fire/Earth/Air/Water weightings for BOTH the natal/"signs" and the house/"houses" charts - and subtracts the former from the latter, to identify the difference. ... A minus difference indicates that NATURE has gifted the person with more of the quality/element than the world/NURTURE will demand/require from him her. ... A plus difference indicates that the world/NURTURE/houses chart will demand more from him/her than NATURE/the natal chart is able to provide. This difference thus becomes a source of psychological stress for the person ... EITHER because the world does not want what he/she is naturally equipped to provide (and thus comfortable with doing so) OR because it wants more of something which he/she is not naturally equipped to provide (and thus uncomfortable with doing so). ... And, if the difference score is within the range of +5 to +25, such stress is healthy because it encourages personal development. However, Astrological Psychology - The Huber Method states scores above +25 indicate that "strong demands were made on our inner resources and that, as children, we were strongly conditioned to behave according to our environment's expectations. In our early years and up until our mid-teens, we respond by adapting and changing in order to meet the demands made upon us; only later do we become aware of our inner needs." ... Moreover, a score over +35 indicates too much conditioning (often resulting in material success but eventually creating some kind of psychological crisis). And a score over +65 is "likely to be channelled into survival of one kind or another". Minus scores can indicate a feeling of not-belonging, because we have something that others either do not want or do not see. Thus, the person may experience rejection; be the black sheep of the family or have suffered neglect in some way. So, "a score of +5 is already a repression - and even a small minus score should be considered as potential repression or neglect". Nevertheless, this unwanted energy is an untapped resource within the chart owner which - once recognised - can be used for personal growth/development. So ... can you see how the +23 difference score for Earth in Sylvester Stallone's Table indicates that others see/saw him as having an ungrounded/unrealistic view of himself? ... And, how difficult it would have been to convince those "realistic" others that he could play the lead in a movie despite an accident-at-birth having caused his face to be partially paralysed? ... If yes, can you then see how he used his "unwanted" Cardinal and Air to write the script of the first Rocky movie - which enabled him to insist upon being cast in the lead part? (And thus, the sow's ear actor became a silk purse movie star.) 2. Explanation of the Additional House Data Table This Table enables us to pinpoint the High, Low and Balanced Energy Points of each house in the natal/Huber-Style chart. These are also shown on the outer rim of the chart image ... High Point = house cusp : Balance Point = first marker : Low Point = second marker ... but we need to refer to the table to ascertain the exact degree locations of each of them. In Huber astrology, conjunctions to these points indicate planets that are "very visible" (at the HP) : "invisible" (at the LP) and "quietly influential" (at the BP). ... Psychologically though, it is planets at the Low Point (LP) which create the most difficulty - because we are aware that their qualities (in us) are unintentionally not noticed by others, so we push them harder (and that "look-at-me" pushing is perceived by others as attention-seeking, causing them to respond by intentionally ignoring us). Hence, by attempting to overcome our invisibility, we actually alienate ourselves from the group. However, once we have identified which natal planets are at the HP, BP and LP ... we no longer need this Table, as we can work directly with the natal chart image. [For example, we can see that Sylvester Stallone has Gemini Uranus conjunct the Low point of the natal 6th house ... and attempting to communicate his uniqueness to movie producers did indeed cause him to be intentionally ignored by them (until he wrote the script for Rocky).]
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 20, 2021 13:51:27 GMT
Ava ... The Image I see in your aspect lines of your natal chart is :- A Mars-Jupiter-Neptune-Pluto doorway in which a skydiver is standing ready to jump ... with the Sun-Moon-Jupiter-Mars door not having yet fully opened for her to do so. And ... in the house chart ... A pendulum fixed at Mars, swinging between Sun and Pluto ... located between a red square and a blue triangle. [However, there is a second pendulum fixed at Jupiter - swinging between Pluto and Sun.] But ... how would you interpret the difference scores in your Dynamical Evaluation Table?
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