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Post by Ava on Apr 1, 2021 17:19:50 GMT
Aka harmonics -- general discussion thread. David Cochrane put out this short & interesting video today: He talks about a time in the early 70s when he had a lot of free time to study charts. He was looking for patterns corresponding to major accidents. One man had a disastrous accident when transiting Pluto was sesquisquare (135°) to his natal Mars, and transiting Mars was sesquisquare natal Pluto. lumina -- would that create a conjunction in the event composite chart? I need real software and more self-reliance in finding quick answers to random questions...
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Post by lumina on Apr 1, 2021 19:35:42 GMT
Ava Yes, at least if one aspect was waxing and the other waning. And iun the same orb (though Cochrane uses very tight orbs for transits, 1 degree and preferably even less than that). If the phases are complementary like that it would result either in a conjunction or opposition the event composite. If the phase was the same, the aspect would be repeated I think. It`s definitely a strong Mars-Pluto-resonance through that dw transit-natal. I think that would be one way to figure out when an outer planet transit might manifest in very literal and even physical terms, if it gets mirrored like that. Obviously most strongly if the aspect is the exact same one that gets repeated, but I think even if the aspect was a different one there might be some resonance created, however that would not lead to an EVC alignment like the one mentioned above. Example from my chart: for 27th february Tr Uranus 7°33 Taurus trine n Venus 6°07 Cap: orb 1°26 Tr Venus 2°47 Pisces trine n Uranus 1°21 Scorpio: 1°26 Eventcomposite: Venus 4°27 Aquarius Uranus 4°27 Leo As you can see additionally the transits were also mirroring my widish Venus-Uranus-sextile. on 27th february was the SOS concert btw, the day before I had thought I had messed up something and apologized just to learn that apparently waht I did was considered pretty funny. lol the SOS concert stands for itself. The day after I was receiving that nice message by P saying that he was "very happy about every duet with you". Of course I still don´t believe a word of that. But it was a nice thing to say. Personally I think the whole timeframe surrounding this, especially the applying phase, was very resonant with Venus-Uranus, and I also think, though Cochrane did not specify this as far as I know, that if there is an aspect underlying the EVC alignment or even any composite really (it does not have to be a ptolemaic aspect, the same angular distance is enough to make that mirroring), however if there is an aspect like this underneath it, I think this is relevant (well I suppose Cochrane would not accept the wide or for my Venus-Uranus - sextile as a sextile but most probably there is another vibration with a closer orb at play, but I feel comfortable calling it a sextile, even at a widish orb, which is not even that wide, unless you are doing vibrational astrology. lol) But anyway what I really want to say is, that the EVC probably shows that something is ON and the symbolism of the planets already sais a lot, but that it might make a qualitative difference WHAT aspect is underlying it. Here in this instance it was a trine for me, a 9th harmonic (or actually 3rd harmonic aspect), which is very much about relating in a harmonious way, or simple harmony, a nice pleasant flow of energy, and it was like that, harmonious. I could imagine it would have felt different if the evc alignment would have been the result of squares. And so that 8th harmonic Mars-Pluto in the example might be a bit more difficult or challenging, than if let`s say it had been made of sextiles. But that is just my hypothesis, I could be wrong of course. And I still think it is unfair (though mathematically correct and logically) that a natal trine and a natal sextile will come up as a square in a composite chart. *sighs*
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Post by lumina on Apr 1, 2021 19:41:22 GMT
BTW using vibrational astrology, the trine between P`s Mars and my Venus is not really a trine, but a 25th harmonic aspect, so the Queen/ king of quintiles, the exponential form of a quintile. lol But actaully at some point this stuff is getting too abstract for me, honestly speaking, though I can relate to the 5th of the 5th harmonic. lol The height of quintile energy I suppose, maybe too high a frequency to be really felt on an every day level. But I kind of like that. As P put into the adventureland concert announcement:
"I go play - come with me?"
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Post by Ava on Apr 1, 2021 20:25:13 GMT
Ah, you spoil me, lumina, thank you for that thorough answer. I'm happy Venus-Uranus had tangible effects for you; really fond of those aspects (Venus conjunct/sextile Uranus). Random comment, my 75th harmonic chart makes no sense to me. There's a sun-moon conjunction even though natally they are sextile, 62°24' apart. Is that the 2°24 excess (60° + 2°24) showing up? Is that crazy math? I'm thinking 75 is 30 + 30 + 15 and 2°24 is similar: 1° + 1° + 1/2°. Sorry to pester you for answers but you're way more advanced with harmonics and I thought you might know, off the top of your head.
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Post by Ava on Apr 1, 2021 20:44:05 GMT
BTW using vibrational astrology, the trine between P`s Mars and my Venus is not really a trine, but a 25th harmonic aspect, so the Queen/ king of quintiles, the exponential form of a quintile. lol But actaully at some point this stuff is getting too abstract for me, honestly speaking, though I can relate to the 5th of the 5th harmonic. lol The height of quintile energy I suppose, maybe too high a frequency to be really felt on an every day level. But I kind of like that. As P put into the adventureland concert announcement: "I go play - come with me?" I love this interpretation. As you said, it's abstract (but fits)....still the real-world basic trine between his Mars and your Venus makes sense to me. I'm not as focused on orbs with things like this. I had my screen up a while as you added this so I didn't see it when I commented on my 75th harmonic. Trines in the 25th harmonic become conjunctions in the 75th, right? So...that makes sense, I have sun exactly trine moon in the 25th. Weirdly I have DSC conjunct Saturn (exact) and IC conjunct Pluto (exact or partile) in both 25th and 75th. Great 25th has NN @ 20 Pisces, 75th has NN @ 0 Pisces. My 75th harmonic is giving me a complex, it's so weird. My husband's is weird, too, and they are interlocking, like my sun-moon-Mercury very tightly conjunct his SN-Psyche in Libra. He also has sun conjunct moon there, but with a wider orb. Still in 75th harmonic, his sun exactly conjunct Mercury, mine's conjunct Mercury with about 1° orb. I don't get that because the phase angles between our natal suns and Mercuries are not the same, for him it's about 24° and for me it's about 20°. --> I shouldn't even be making a thread when I can't figure out these basics.
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Post by Ava on Apr 1, 2021 21:01:35 GMT
Cochrane's helpful readings on first 32 harmonics www.astrosoftware.com/harmonicfirst32.pdfThinking about this: Wouldn't call myself "inspired" but I'm a little off the beaten path for sure. And I like how that might work in synastry
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Post by lumina on Apr 1, 2021 21:16:58 GMT
AvaI think you are inspired. And always open to think outside the box. which is a sign of true creativity. Well as for higher harmonics I am honestly lost. lol I like my 25th though. Even though yes it has its... challenging parts (Venus-Uranus-Saturn; but then again doesn`t it fit?)
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Post by lumina on Apr 1, 2021 21:27:57 GMT
this is P (he is so much deeper than me, in terms of the 25th at least. he also has a very strong 5th harmonic chart, well the 5th harmonic is a little more crazy), but I really love that Moon-Mercury-Pluto, there always seems to be something beneath all that fun and creativity and play that just goes deeper, some more proundness being transferred than it might seem on the surface. Anyway Cochrane uses direct midpoints in all harmonic charts, so our grand trines and my t-square certainly come up with some interesting midpoints (within 1°30 max). Also the orbs are treated differently than in traditional astrology and for synastry purposes Cochrane takes half the usual orb to pick up the real strong resonances (which means: conjunction: 8 degrees; opposition: 4 degrees: trine: 2 degrees: square also about 2 degrees or so). looks weird, but this way the relative importance or closeness is kept intact for all harmonic charts. *Shrugs* it`s just a very different approach. Anyway putting that aside, yes from a more traditional approach that trine bwetween P and me and Mars and Venus is certainly there, esp. taking signbackgrounds into account.
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Post by Ava on Apr 1, 2021 22:33:30 GMT
lumina, Thanks for that compliment ~ well I couldn't do astrology without you, as I'm making obvious with this thread. My 25th harmonic sun @ 4 Aqua is right on your 25th MC. My 25th ASC @ 15 Aqua on your 25th SN, your sun on my SN (all 25th). You have a lot @ 3-4°, I have that sun trine moon (4 Gem) and Mercury (5 Gem) and all of this plays nicely with P's NN @ 4 Aries (close enough to your moon-Mars to count?) Oddly my aforementioned 75th chart has the sun-moon @ 14 Libra. (P's 25th sun). And here, I relate to him through a great distance and various barely-existent channels. It's very, very diluted but still sort of there. Someone in my life who's not. Maybe it's impossible to break out of the trine energy (the association between 25th and 75th) because I don't know him. So what's not to like? LOL Your 75th NN @ 13 Libra I believe. All this reminds me of the homeopathic law: the more diluted the remedy, the more potent the cure. Well that's plant vibration. I won't test anyone's patience suggesting a correlation between plant and planet vibrations, beyond what I just said, and the fact that they obviously have most of the letters in common.
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Post by ishtarmy on Apr 2, 2021 7:57:12 GMT
I'm not an expert in vibrational astrology, I'm doing research about it nowadays though. I think I read somewhere about aspects to angles and Moon to be very important as they require an exact birth time, the geometrical is important too, and I think it's true.
I see quite a lot of 25th harmonic AC-Chiron conjunction, like Elvis Presley, David Bowie, John Lennon, Paul McCartney. AC-Sun conjunction: Jim Morrison, Jon Bon Jovi, Kurt Cobain. DC-Moon conjunction: Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, David Bowie. It's important to note that the artistic ones tend to have conjunction to angles and T-square in 25th harmonic chart, at least the ones that I add to the list.
I found an interesting read on reddit about this topic. It's a translation based on the research by Hans-Jörg Walter. I think he wrote a book about it too.
Part I: https://www.reddit.com/r/astrology/comments/7v3sog/harmonic_charts_an_introduction_and_a_german/
Part II: https://www.reddit.com/r/astrology/comments/7v3sw2/harmonic_charts_an_introduction_and_a_german/
These are the keywords from Hans-Jörg Walter:
1 mind, vibration, whole 2 information, seperation, selection 3 form, senses, love 4 matter, reproduction, drive 5 power, movement, aggression 6 order, hirarchy, society 7 time, inhibition, structure 8 energy, mutation, sublimation 9 passive chaos, dissolution/resolution, illusion 10 active chaos, catastrophy, creation 11 commitment, heroicity, ecstasy 12 cycle, change, replacement/exchange
Keywords 13 Birth, Seperation, Originality 17 Origin, Centre, Narcicissm 19 Sexuality, Libido, Game 23 Fate, Risc, Success 29 Death, Dream, Unconscious 31 Abstraction, Role, Ghetto 37 Chemistry, Disguise, Secret 41 Logic, Ratio, Cold Feelings 43 Arrow of time, Pioneers, Utopia 47 Physics, Sports, Music 53 Symbol, Myth, Killing 55 marsian (5x11th=55th) from note: The 55th harmonic has linked by Walter to people that consume drugs - it is in a way the brutal (Mars) way to open the gates of the subconscious to experience ecstacy. 59 Justice, Ethics, Therapy
Keywords 61 Sacrifice, Dedication, Religion 67 Systems, Machines, Organisms 71 Performance, Show, Speaker 73 Living Being, Biosphere 77 saturnian (7x11th=77th) combines bacchian Ceres with the lord of structure Saturn in a high form of art, which puts the ecstasy of the body in a disciplined form, the dance. Dancers are highlighted harmonically in the H 77. 79 Child, Maturation, Upbringing 83 Father, Rulership, Power 89 Mother, Creating, Forming, Burning 97 Aura, Charisma 101 Social Critique, Enlightenmnet (social sense) 103 Macrocosm, Space, UFOs 107 Physics, Sports, Musics 109 Living Beings, Biosphere 113 Suggestion, Trance 127 Formulas, Writing, Software 131 Propaganda, Advertisement 137 Breaking of boundaries, Emancipation 139 Research, Analysis 149 Intuition, Seventh Sense 151 Paranormal, Psi 157 Sense of Smell, Aroma 163 Microcosm, Atoms 167 Physics, Sports, Musics 173 Sense of Colour, Painting 179 Law, Ethics, Therapy 181 Sacrifice, Devotion, Religion
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Post by ishtarmy on Apr 2, 2021 7:58:25 GMT
I'm intrigued by his 97th harmonic keywords (Aura, Charisma), so I did some quick research on it. I found the ones that are sexualised alot tend to have angle-sexual planets conjunction (Venus, Mars, Pluto), sexual planets aspecting each others, sexual planets conjunct nodes, nodes conjunct angles.
For example: AC-Pluto➡ Christina Aguilera, David Bowie, Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe AC-SN➡ Ariana Grande, Grace Kelly AC-NN (Adele, Katy Perry MC-Venus➡ Brigitte Bardot, Elvis Presley MC-Mars➡ Brigitte Bardot, Elizabeth Taylor, Leonardo DiCaprio MC-NN➡ Alain Delon, Giselle Bunchen, Grace Kelly IC-Venus➡ Billie Eilish, Britney Spears, David Bowie IC-Pluto➡ Ariana Grande, Britney Spears DC-Venus➡ David Bowie, DC-Mars➡ Audrey Hepburn DC-Pluto➡ Jon Bon Jovi
p.s I'm wary to use the ones that categorised as C or DD rodden rating. But if I put those on the list, there are alot of 97th harmonic AC-Venus conjunction celebs, like Beyonce, Avril Lavigne.
Also the tidbit I found that I think very interesting. In Beyonce's birth chart you'd find AC-Venus too. Interestingly, there's no AC-Venus conjunction in Jungkook's 97th harmonic (K-pop idol, with C rodden rating, I'm very cautious to use this, because I know the birth time is false lol), although there's AC-Venus conjunction in 1st harmonic. Instead, I found MC-Venus conjunction in his 97th harmonic. I thought if there's a tight conjunction in birth chart, it's likely to have it too in harmonic charts. Like IU for example (another K-pop idol). She has a very tight Sun-Mercury conjunction, her Sun and Mercury refuse to leave each other in her harmonic charts.
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Post by lumina on Apr 2, 2021 10:41:17 GMT
Thanks for the addition ishtarmy. Very interesting, though I don`t know how he came to the conclusion about the keywords. Anyway, also I remain a bit cautious about angles in harmonic charts. I do think they are meaningful and important, however if the time of birth might be just a couple of minutes to one degree off (so in average a difference of 4 minutes, depending on if the sign is rising quick or slow), the angle could be at a completely different spot and the aspects wouldn`t be in play anymore. Like taking the 97th harmonic, if the ASC-degree is just one degree off, this would make for a difference of 97 degrees! I do tend to keep an eye on the angles in the lower harmonics (until maybe 12th harmonic or so), if the birthtime is known or perfectly rectified, but only looking for the conjunctions (as these can have an orb up to 12 or as per Cochrane 16 degrees, the other aspects are divided by their harmonic number, meaning an opposition would get 8 degree orb, a trine would get 4 degrees etc.) Actually even the position of the planets, esp. the inner planets up to Mars, unless one of them is stationary, might be far off, if the birthtime is not know. STicking to the 97th harmonic as example, the Sun could be up to 97 degrees, as this is how far it moves (approximately) a day in the 97th harmonic. This is manageable with lower harmonics, esp. in terms of conjunctions in the harmonic chart, as these would still remain in orb over the day, but the higher the harmonic gets, the less accurate things get, if the birthtime is not known.
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Post by lumina on Apr 2, 2021 10:52:17 GMT
Avahanks for that compliment ~ well I couldn't do astrology without you, as I'm making obvious with this thread. You do great astrology without me! However I think we blend pretty well and learn from each other. "You have a lot @ 3-4°, I have that sun trine moon (4 Gem) and Mercury (5 Gem) and all of this plays nicely with P's NN @ 4 Aries (close enough to your moon-Mars to count?)" So right on my Venus. Makes sense. And yes my Moon-Mars is close enough to P`s NN, unless his birthtime is off. (which is why I like to stick to the 5th harmonic, the chance is greater that the harmonic positions are reall where they are shown to be. lol and it is the "root - harmonic", which I think is stronger anyway, in the terms of being closer to being tangible. (His Mars is biquintile my Venus in the 5th harmonic, and because of the existence of that 5th harmonic aspect in the 5th harmonic chart, it comes up conjunct in the 25th harmonic of course). Good thought about the plant/ planet-correlation.
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Post by ishtarmy on Apr 2, 2021 13:31:27 GMT
That's very interesting, I learn more today. Thank you lumina After a little bit of googling, it seems like Walter's book is in German, and I don't speak German lol. Do you think the signs and degree are important in harmonic charts? Some says it's not important but John Michael Addey said: "The 5th harmonic indicates power and the ability to have power or lordship in some area. It is a kind of art and kind of marriage (but 9th harmonic describes the marriage partner). It also relates to sexual penetration. Saturn and Uranus rule astrology and Saturn in Uranus near 0 degrees of cardinal signs or mutable signs in 5th harmonic chart often occurs in charts of astrologers." I don't have interesting pattern in my 5H chart. Just a Uranus-Venus-Jupiter yod with Venus being an apex. Although the conjunctions are pretty interesting. Venus-Chiron, Sun-Moon, Mercury-Pluto, Jupiter-NN, MC-Uranus (I also have this conjunction in 1H harmonic). I think my 11H and 12H are pretty strong, but idk, I just like the patterns. Cochrane said 11H is strong in musicians. I do like to sing and make my own music. Don't have guts to release them though.
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Post by lumina on Apr 3, 2021 10:43:24 GMT
ishtarmy" I don't speak German lol" I do. 😁 "Do you think the signs and degree are important in harmonic charts? " Difficult subject. Well in vibrational astrology they are not. Generally speaking. As the harmonic charts are highlighting the aspects. However there is research and I think Cochrane mentioned the signs of certain harmonics being important or possibly important. In Vedic astrology of course they are. Maybe they are important in a symbolic way, but I feel more comfortable just focusing on the aspects. Saturn in Uranus near 0 degrees of cardinal signs or mutable signs in 5th harmonic chart often o"ccurs in charts of astrologers." Well that are 2 out of 3 possible placements, (in terms of the beginning degrees of modalities at least, of course they could end up somewhere in the middle of a sign too.) Just a Uranus-Venus-Jupiter yod with Venus being an apex. What else do you need? lol If it is close in orb, that is very strong. Especially if there is Venus on the Jupiter/Uranus-mp within 1 degree. Interestingly I have that in my natal chart, very close in orb too. Venus conjunct Jupiter/URanus (in your case it would be opposite btw). will continue later Although the conjunctions are pretty interesting. Venus-Chiron, Sun-Moon, Mercury-Pluto, Jupiter-NN, MC-Uranus (I also have this conjunction in 1H harmonic). I think my 11H and 12H are pretty strong, but idk, I just like the patterns. Cochrane said 11H is strong in musicians. I do like to sing and make my own music. Don't have guts to release them though.
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Post by lumina on Apr 3, 2021 12:08:13 GMT
continuing. BTW my own Venus = Jupiter/URanus is so close, it is still there in the 5th harmonic (0°49 orb) Although the conjunctions are pretty interesting. Venus-Chiron, Sun-Moon, Mercury-Pluto, Jupiter-NN, MC-Uranus (I also have this conjunction in 1H harmonic). I read that whatever harmonic chart contains Sun conjunct Moon, is a very important one. I think my 11H and 12H are pretty strong, but idk, I just like the patterns. Cochrane said 11H is strong in musicians. I do like to sing and make my own music. Don't have guts to release them though. i love music! Well I can`t sing myself but lately just decided that it doesn`t matter. Just doing it because I like doing it. After swearing for decades I would never let anybody hear me sing. lol Well times change.... And yes the 11th harmonic is a very interesting one. mWho knows? You could be a rock star maybe.
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Post by lumina on Apr 3, 2021 12:11:57 GMT
That is my 11th harmonic chart btw. And oh it seems that this is where my Venus-Jupiter-Uranus-comes together. So seems this very close midpoint configuration in natal is actually based on 11th harmonic aspects. Interesting.
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Post by lumina on Apr 3, 2021 12:33:48 GMT
If I should describe the 11th harmonic, though I have not checked this with any astrologers. lol just my personal "feeling", it feels like a "septime" in music, the "note/ key of longing/yearning" as a music teacher once described it (and explained that this is the reason it works so well with the evergreens and especially sentimental love songs. lol). What it does is really expressing a longing, a yearning for getting to the NEXT level, a point of stability, which would be found in the octave (which I relate to the 12th harmonic, the mirror of the 1st and therefore, astrologically, the basic, the natal, but just one octave higher).
The 11th however is "hungry" for "something more"; it`s not there yet, but it can FEEL that the point of fulfillment is almost within reach. Well that is how that key on the piano, that sound and also the 11th harmonic feels to me at least, and that is how I would describe it. The awareness of something more, something different, something, JUST out of reach (yet), but also can become the reason to get going, getting there, moving to reach that "unreachable", the promise of fulfilment.
(Of cours something like that could drive a person crazy. lol)
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Post by Ava on Apr 4, 2021 17:24:41 GMT
Excellent lumina . I watched part of Cochrane's video on the 11th and he starts out saying the same thing about the yearning - one can read about it on his first slide here: Why the 11th Harmonic is Very Strong: Consecutive Harmonic InterweavingThank you for all the information ishtarmy and I appreciate your emphasis on the 11th. Your SN-Mercury-Venus seems like an innate talent for pleasant communication (or, I'd read it that way in a natal chart). So far it seems we have a lot of interpretations for the 11th: - musicality - yearning - "commitment, heroicity, ecstasy" - "Self-knowledge leads to dogged persistence & defiance to show the world that self." (Samuel Reynolds, YouTube, "A Nitty Gritty Intro into Harmonics") Cochrane, from the text link above. Can't believe he's quoting LL. The 11th Harmonic highlights 32°44 aspects in the chart and is connected to the 22nd harmonic (16°22), 44th (8°11) and so on. I have a strong or weak 11th harmonic, depending on how you look at it. The sun's conjunct Chiron and Neptune (all within about 4°) and Mercury is tightly conjunct Mars, inconjunct ASC/DSC axis.
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t5
New Member
Posts: 299
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Post by t5 on May 8, 2021 16:14:18 GMT
Ah, you spoil me, lumina , thank you for that thorough answer. I'm happy Venus-Uranus had tangible effects for you; really fond of those aspects (Venus conjunct/sextile Uranus). Random comment, my 75th harmonic chart makes no sense to me. There's a sun-moon conjunction even though natally they are sextile, 62°24' apart. Is that the 2°24 excess (60° + 2°24) showing up? Is that crazy math? I'm thinking 75 is 30 + 30 + 15 and 2°24 is similar: 1° + 1° + 1/2°. Sorry to pester you for answers but you're way more advanced with harmonics and I thought you might know, off the top of your head.
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