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Post by lumina on Dec 23, 2020 16:05:55 GMT
This is going to be a bit of a research-thread for me, just checking up on some Venus REturns that started before people got married. Curious if it shows in some way. I expect of course Venus having significant aspects (coming up on an angle, tight aspects, esp. to Sun, Moon, Mars or chartruler); Libra on an angle, Juno in significant tight aspects, the natal DESC-ruler or chartruler playing a role. the Return ASC or chartruler falling into natal 7th house. planets angular in particular on the DESC of the return chart (but in general on an angle), esp. Sun, Moon, Venus or Mars. STuff like that and more.
EDIT: Jupiter and Saturn might be typically coming up too.
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Post by lumina on Dec 23, 2020 16:16:30 GMT
This is my Dads premarital Venus Return (His Solar Return that year had a Sun-Venus-conjunction on the DESC) Well Moon on the DESC Venus-Juno-conjunction The chartruler on the last degree of the zodiac - time to wrap something up and prepare for a new change; that VR Return also opposed my Mom`s natal Moon within a degree. and was widely conjunct the composite NN. his Return Venus-Juno fell right onto composite DESC. The exact Mercury-Jupiter on 2 Pisces in 7th house is intresting, Mercury is natally his ASC-ruler, and Jupiter the traditional DESC-ruler. And there is a nice Venus-Mars-trine in this chart, making a grand trine with his natal Mars on 9 Libra. (and my Mom`s Saturn, which rules her DESC).
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Post by Ava on Dec 24, 2020 3:00:05 GMT
My natal on the inside (rectified chart), Venus return on the outside Like your dad's chart, lumina... - Leo rising, with chart ruler sun @ critical degree - His VR sun squares Saturn, my VR sun trines natal Saturn to the minute - Aqua DSC aspecting Uranus - Moon in sign of natal sun - Juno in a fixed sign (marriage is fixed) - Jupiter in Pisces ^ Recipe for marriage right there
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Post by lumina on Dec 24, 2020 9:56:21 GMT
Ava wow Ava , that is so cool! (it probably does not always work like that, and I find your chart very strong on its own, but it is interesting that so many common aspects and placements came up). I am just really blown away by the close New Moon in your overlay and the DESC-ruler coming to the DESC, along with that Venus-Pluto right there. BTW how close was Venus to the Sun? It looks like you had a conjunction there, or at least a proximity.
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Post by Ava on Dec 24, 2020 12:07:44 GMT
lumina - sun and Venus are almost exactly 6° apart. Draconic Saturn is conjunct the sun by about 1°. Transiting Pluto was conjunct my Venus for years, that's how it seemed. So many things happened. The moon-Jupiter conjunction in the chart above is also extremely close, just a few minutes orb. I was having some issues with emotional overload back in 2010, when Jupiter was in Pisces again. An astrologer friend once pointed out that a Pisces moon might struggle with Jupiter conjunctions because the energy is actually so different, the moon can get squashed and not function right. (But, like, what doesn't squash my moon? It's like a soap bubble.) Anyway, off topic, just curious now what the next pass of Jupiter to my moon will be like (in the next few years).
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Post by lumina on Dec 24, 2020 22:06:26 GMT
I would definitely count the Sun and Venus. And DRaco SAturn is very interesting of course.
Yeah, but how many return charts did you have where transiting Pluto was EXACT on your Venus?
Moon-upiter is intersting. it surprises me a bit, I would have thought it is a great match, after all Jupiter is the traditional ruler of Pisces. HOwever since Jupiter expands what it touches, maybe the huge expansion of already boundless feelings and sensitivity is simply too much for the Moon. And yes they are different energies of course. STill, es- jupiter in Pisces is rather mellow, so I am surprised about that. I wouldn`t have interpreted it like that if I had seen it coming up, and honestly I still wouldn`t do. ACtually I would think Moon-Jupiter is a saving grace in most charts, but emotional overload could be a good keyword as well. hmm. gotta think about that.
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Post by Ava on Dec 25, 2020 0:35:32 GMT
Yeah, but how many return charts did you have where transiting Pluto was EXACT on your Venus? My Venus @ 6°35 Sag - K, Pluto entered Sag in 1996, so that's when the fun began, tr Pluto @ 4 Sag at the end of this year www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/1900/ae_1996.pdf- Hit 5°, Rx'ed to 1°, and hit my Venus exactly around Christmas, 1997 www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/1900/ae_1997.pdf- It was exactly conjunct my Venus three times in 1998 www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/1900/ae_1998.pdf- It was stationary direct @ 7 Sag, about a degree away, for a month in 1999 www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/1900/ae_1999.pdfThen it moved on to be exactly conjunct my Neptune forever in 2000. Yeah, talk about transformative. Well my Venus is conjunct composite Mercury with my ex (not college BF, the other one) and that may explain our communication difficulties and shut-downs, tr Pluto conjunct comp Mercury. Makes sense, right? Tr draco Pluto enters Sag in 2022 but won't stay so God-forsaken long.
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Post by lumina on Dec 25, 2020 22:22:52 GMT
Yes, transiting Pluto tends to hit 3 times at least, and if in extended stay (usually having to do with getting stationary very close to one`s natal position) 5 times. For me this was a 3 time experience.
january 2011 july 2011 november 2011
However the Solar Return of 2011 and spanning all of 2012 had Pluto conjunct my Venus partile (42 minutes). That was the closest (the year before the orb was tight, too, but I think about 1 and a half degree).
Well P is going to have the transit over his Venus in 2021, with exact hits in
february 21 july 21 dec 21 / jan 22
In his solar return that just started the orb of Pluto to Venus, is about 1,5 degrees
Next year will be interesting though (end 21 leading into most of 22), as he is going to have
SR Venus 26°29 Cap SR Pluto 25°31 Cap n Venus 25°55 Cap (so his Venus-Return will be happening just hours before his Solar Return)
- actually it seems to be an important year for him, if I look at that Solar Return
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Post by Ava on Dec 26, 2020 17:25:34 GMT
lumina Do you recall a Venus-Pluto theme in 2011? I guess we're getting off topic. While I'm at it... I'd mentioned upcoming tr draco Pluto reaching Sag. I was tinkering around trying to locate the time this would be exactly conjunct my Venus and got sidetracked by this new moon chart (April 30, 2022). Imgur is down at the moment so I can't post the chart, but the draco version of that new moon in my location has: 18 Pisces new moon and Eros exactly conjunct my moon 7 Leo ASC exactly conjunct my rectified ASC 5 Aqua Venus-Jupiter exactly conjunct my Mercury 6 Sag Pluto exactly conjunct my Venus
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Post by lumina on Dec 27, 2020 18:04:12 GMT
Ava wow, a New MOon with Eros exact at your Moon and synastrically VERY interesting! Can`t wait to see this in play! Jeez, it sounds pretty transformative and intense. I still wonder what exactly is the Draconic version in transits doing,b ut since it is a nodal chart, it seems like it is brimming with "direction" and "purpose".
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Post by Ava on Dec 27, 2020 19:17:35 GMT
* Edited our my long, sophomoric ramble about draconic charts, super-consciousness, and internal timekeeping in sync with the solar system. You didn't miss anything.
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Post by lumina on Dec 27, 2020 21:48:02 GMT
Ava I find your thoughts very interesting. They seem sound to me, too.
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Post by FruityLlama on Dec 28, 2020 14:47:35 GMT
Hi both,
May I ask how you create the venus return chart on astro.com? Thanks x
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Post by lumina on Dec 28, 2020 15:19:39 GMT
you have to do it manually. Look up in the ephemeris, which day Tr Venus will be conjunct your natal Venus exactly. Then make a birthchart for that day, and tinker with it until Tr Venus is exactly conjunct your natal Venus (down to the minute).
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Post by FruityLlama on Dec 28, 2020 19:42:18 GMT
Thanks lumina, Here is my mother's pre marital VR: I hope I've done it right... She is in the red, VR in blue. Seems a bit non descript to me at a first glance, but Jupiter is rising. Jupiter being the natal ruler of IC is interesting as whilst she enjoyed the day ofc, it was mostly organised and dictated by her parents. She said there were all her parents friends there and so she felt somewhat uncomfortable and overwhelmed. Natal Mars may reflect her feelings regarding this, and its interesting how transiting Mars is opposite and also angular...
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Post by FruityLlama on Dec 28, 2020 19:49:23 GMT
I added some asteroids and whatnot as well and here are the only interesting ones:
-Tr. Juno and Amor conj. Tr Mars all next to MC but coming from 9th house which is also interesting knowing that my Dad is a Sag.
-Tr. Sun in 11th is conjunct Priapus
-Natal 2H Juno falls into Tr. 1st house
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Post by lumina on Dec 28, 2020 21:07:19 GMT
it all makes sense what you wrote, also what I would make a note of:
- angle-repetition (maybe not closely conjunct, but worth noting)
- Moon-NN - conjunction in 4th house, on the Aries Point (or Cappy point in this instance), combining the last degree of a sign and a very early degree, therefore denoting the end of a cycle and beginning of a new one
- Moon trine Venus closely, tying this more strongly to a Venusian-expression (as it already would be, after all it IS the Venus-Return chart, so anything coming up in there has to be related to Venusian stuff)
- Venus conjunct jupiter, not only being a typical marriage constellation (as per old astrology books), but also bringing the (traditional(r uler of the DESC into this. Doubly so because of the angle repetition, also her Jupiter-Return might have been interesting too, as Jupiter rules her DESC - traditionally, and how fitting she would marry a man from Jupiter (even though she chose a Sag not a Pisces)
- usually I would not rejoice about a Sun in 12th house in the overlay before a marriage, however in this instance it is the natal Venus-house, so this might actually have been a good thing, also there is a DW of VR Sun trine natal Mars and VR Mars trine natal Sun.
- maybe the most telltale sign, and how did I even overlook that until now? Jupiter EXACT on the ASC, and Jupiter as I said coming in there from the 7th house as traditional DESC-ruler (and Jupiter being a symbol for the "husband" in some forms of astrology anyway, not that I would always agree with that, but Jupiter often has his hand in weddings)
- and here it even trines the modern DESC-ruler Neptune, which sits in 4th house, stellium in 4th house - time to come home or make a home
- the Moon on the IC in the natal already promised that this would be an important thing for her, and this Venus-return mirrored that with Moon-NN in 4th house, thus being a good timing tool for one of the timeframes when that MOon-IC could find expression in the world of relationships
- and of course elevated Juno on the MC!
now, did your father have close conjunctions of his natal or progressed chart that year to her Venus-Return? Or did their composite spark up some of those planets/ angles?
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Post by lumina on Dec 28, 2020 21:35:03 GMT
This is my brother`s pre marital Venus return. Also important, in his Solar Return that year (march 2017) Tr Venus was exact conjunct his natal Venus, but in its retro motion, so this was going to be an important year in terms of Venus-issues - and also obviously having to do with revisiting something about it, maybe changing ones opinion. Well he has never wanted to get married, and even up to 2 months prior he said they wouldn`t get married, the actual decision to get married was relatively spontaneous, and well the marriage was organized within 3 weeks. LOL I know that he messaged me at the end of july, and they got married before the end of august. His reluctance to get married did not have anything to do with his feelings about his wife or family, but rather, he never felt marriage to be "necessary" (natally he has MOon conjunct Jupiter and Uranus in Sag ). also that Solar REturn that year showed an exact Sun-Moon-square with Tr Moon also being opposing natal Moon, albeit not exactly. Also Solar Return ASC on 21 Cancer, (conj. Vesta on 20 Cancer) Pluto on 18 Cap, Uranus on 22 Aries (I think his wife`s ASC is somewhere around there in ARies too, but I would have to check again). So that definitely was a year that would bring a big change. Anyway the Venus-Return here dates from may when Venus was deciding to move forwards after a lot of retro and direct hopping. I find it very fitting. Venus in 5th house exactly opposing Jupiter. NOt going over anything in detail, but Venus rules the DESC in that chart and disposits Sun. Mercury on the DESC - and in his natal Mercury rules his DESC in Virgo. Sun in the 7th house exactly squaring the nodal axis - they got married on the day or a day after a solar eclipse in august 2017. Interestingly their son (who had just turned one at that point) has a Moon-Venus-conjunction on 1 Virgo and 28 Leo. And obviously the Juno-Pluto-conjunction is interesting.
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Post by lumina on Oct 3, 2021 10:47:16 GMT
lumina Do you recall a Venus-Pluto theme in 2011? I`m sorry I think I missed this question. Yes I`d say so, 2011 was wildly intense, just in terms of my emotional responses I suppose.
What springs to mind are 2-3 things mostly.
1. Been to London and saw "Anna Christie" with Jude Law and Ruth Wilson (if you check it up, there is a movie with Marlene Dietrich about it I think, and in my perception this has a very STrong Pluto-Neptune theme).
The thing is I`ve seen Jude before on stage, 2 years prior as Hamlet, and saw him after wards, but THAT play? Total differen level. It just felt so freaking intense, to the point that when there was a short break in between, I turned to my friend and said: "I know this must sound totally crazy, and I know I have just seen him on stage and will see him again in not even 10 minutes, but right now I miss him so much I can feel it in my bones."
That is the feeling that stuck with me, well the memory of it, along with when the last performance was done, I was all messed up (it was the ONLY time in my life I can remember that I used alcohol to sedate my feelings, in this instance the feeling of total abandonment, I was so messed up, the cab driver asked my friend if I was going to be okay, Just imagine that a stiff detached BRITISH cabdriver. Jeez, I really don`t know what that was about. I mean it was nothing! Except when I left London that time, I had the strong feeling I left a piece of me behind, or my heart or whatever. I was feeling THAT intense yes. About NOTHING. But I blame the astrology too, there was not only Tr Pluto on my Venus and actually HIS Sun, so he became a "hook" for this I guess, and at the time I was there there was also Tr Uranus, Tr Mars and Tr Juno in play, not sure how closely but I think at least Tr Mars and Tr Urnaus were very tightly T-squaring Tr Pluto, all on my Venus.
Also on a more political level, while i was in London, there were a lot of riots going on in some parts of the city, with people burning down cars and shops, and so on. And at some evening I noticed the hotelstaff getting quite nervous, just slightly, they usually mask this well, but I noticed this nevertheless, and knew that this was a potentially .... tense situation. Nothing happened, but the energy was like this. And I guess I projected some of it, or so.
2. Few weeks later I was at the first solo concert of P I ever saw, and I was at the HEIGHT of my selfloathing, I was also at the height of my weight. And I was at the most defensive, to the point that anyone who dared approach me with so much as a "Hello", was risking having their heads bitten off just by the audacity to acknowledge I exist. So in short I had a GLARING invisible sign right across my forehead and firmly crossed arms and shut down face that said: "No trespassing. Closed for social interaction."
Well P was probably the only person inable to decipher those huge letters and closed off energy that was hovering around me, he did not only approach me, he was sticking near my seat for far too long, and throwing me completely off balance. lol Well he probably was just too concerned with his own mess in his private life (He must have already been on the verge of breaking up with his then long term girlfriend).
3. thing was also surrounding P and me getting paranoid and you know the messed up story of New Years eve. But that was already in a new Solar Return year possibly also Venus Return would need to check.
But yeah lot`s of Venus-Pluto-theme. (In case of Jude`s performance, I suppose it was intensified, as we have that inbuilt in our synastry, as his Sun conjuncts my Venus, and they are squaring the Pluto-MC-conjunctions we both have, just that synastrically we make it "closer" as my Pluto is partile conjunct his MC and his Pluto is partile conjunct mine. But well so my Venus-Pluto-square overlays his Sun-Pluto-square, and that summer there was that transiting Uranus-Pluto-Mars-T-square I believe hooking into this.
In P`s and my case, it is not in the synastry, however since we both have Venus-Pluto-square natally, it shows up in our composite as well. Actually he is undergoing the same transit I had back then, this and next year, as Tr Pluto has moved to conjunct HIS Venus.
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Post by lumina on Oct 3, 2021 11:02:12 GMT
Also checked the Italian`s Venus Return chart of this year, as he got into a relationship, pretty soon after it started.
In the Return chart itself:
- Moon on 3 Aqua conjunct DESC on 4 Aqua - Venus conjunct Sun conjunct Neptune around the 8th house cusp (14 - 19 - 20 Pisces; so the Sun-Neptune is stronger or tighter than Venus-Sun, but I think with 5 degrees it is still valid, and well the proof is in the pudding I guess. lol)
- Mars on 3 Gemini in 11th house trines that Moon - makes sense, the relationship came out of his social group (colleagues/ friends). and his natal Mars is on 6 or 7 Gemini, so he was having a Mars-Return shortly after, so probably just when they got into that relationship.
In terms of overlays
- Return DESC-Moon on 4-3 Aqua conjunct his natal ASC-Mercury on 6 Aqua
- Return Pluto on his NN with one degree orb
- Return Moon-ASC also conjunct his natal SAturn on 00 Aqua; Return Saturn on 09 Aqua, so he was or is in the midst of his Saturn-Return
- Return Jupiter (18 Aqua) and Return Mercury (22 Aqua) on his natal Sun, ruler of his DESC (20 Aqua)
- Return ASC actually conjunct his natal Jupiter-DESC (4 Leo - 6 Leo) - Jupiter-Mercury runs along his natal horizon, so it just seems so fitting to get into a relationship with those planets emphasized again
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