Debunking Cookbook Astrology

[FruityLlama]

I thought this might be a fun thing to do if anyone is up for it.

I usually spend my time researching astrology aspects, even if I know what they generally mean, I still like reading about them. I mostly like reading about people's real life experience though. 

However, when researching these things, I'm sure I don't have to spell it out that there are always people out there who want hard and fast rules regarding aspects. I know how tempting it is to try and find patterns and conduct little studies and things, but the more you research, the more you realise one aspect doesn't mean much by itself. 

People forget that though, but the only area in which this actually annoys me is the fatalistic, doom and gloom interpretations of things and this is usually found on the forum that we shall not name. 

An example is Venus sq. Uranus in synastry. Some might vaguely say "oh, it's exciting at best", whereas everyone else will go "IT MEANS DIVORCE" "IT'LL NEVER GET OFF THE GROUND" "IT'LL NEVER WORK OUT!"

And I'm sitting here looking at my grandparents synastry- a marriage that's lasted since 1961 (how long is that now...50 odd years right?) and still going. They have Venus sq. Uranus at 4degrees! They have a sextile too so its a DW, but also potentially a Uranus sq Moon DW, and a certain Ur-Mars DW too. 
I've seen people write that even easy Uranus aspects are not auspicious and whilst this isn't new, I'm sat here in isolation getting p*ssed off and thought, I wonder if anyone else has read these things and thought.."well, that's horsesh!t because here's an example that disproves it".

If so, would you mind posting examples?
Another example of mine is my mother and father who have Chiron-Mars DW (opp. and square, both under 4degs). This according to someone somewhere else means the people won't ever get married lols. 

I'm aware that in mature, serious synastry analysis, natal charts need to be thoroughly examined and that successful synastries often mirror patterns in the natal. My mum has a natal Chiron-Mars square if you count an 8degree orb which seems far too wide for me really, but it perhaps does explain a few things. MArs rules her IC and is situated in the 4th house, whilst chiron squares it from her 7th so I suppose Dad might have helped to heal some of her childhood issues by placing his own chiron on top of hers, thereby squaring her Mars. 

But anyway, astrology is supposed to be fun. Please share your debunking examples!

[FruityLlama]

More on the Venus-Uranus square, or any aspect. For my grandparents, my Grandad's job required him to travel abroad a lot so I think my Nana was at home alone during their marriage, but she wouldn't have minded that especially as her mother lived with them to help out, plus Nana had her own job. That's all I can think that would even relate to their Venus-Uranus synastry because otherwise there was nothing unstable about their marriage from what I've heard and witnessed.

Neither of them are Uranian either might I add. Grandad has an Aqua moon and Nana a sextile between her Sun and Uranus but as personalities in real life they aren't Uranian, like really not. They're both quite like the Cap/Can axis really.

Same with my partners' parents; quite a few Uranus squares, including one to Mars. They also have Moon-Moon opposition..well in fact they're both full moon babies (Mother: Libra Sun, Aries moon, Father: Aries Sun, Libra moon) with luminaries reversed so they balance each other out nicely there, but god forbid that Moon-moon, plus Sun-Sun opposition!!

This probably isn't a good example actually, but on the flip side, if there was any synastry in which I would expect a VE-UR hard aspect, it would be Mike Todd and Liz T surely? They have a wide trine and not much else Uranus wise. This surprised me given that Elizabeth had a natal VE-UR conjunction and the marriage was indeed interrupted by his untimely death. 
Same for Richard Burton synastry- but this time even less Uranus- no VE-UR aspect at all and I expected there to be more to be honest, given that they married each other twice- now that is unconventional and different, right?! 

[Ava]

I'll admit that some aspects give me pause, but I still consider myself a novice.

So there are certain things I associate with short/"failed" relationships, if I'm looking at relationship charts, like:

- Composite sun square Saturn
- Composite sun or nodes unaspected
- Composite with nothing much in the "relationship houses" (2, 4, 7, 8)

Yet I'm looking at the composite for a great, longstanding couple I know, and the sun is unaspected! I think that proves your point FruityLlama .

"in fact they're both full moon babies (Mother: Libra Sun, Aries moon, Father: Aries Sun, Libra moon) with luminaries reversed so they balance each other out nicely there, but god forbid that Moon-moon, plus Sun-Sun opposition!!"

My own impression is that sun opp moon can be ideal, if you want an emotional relationship or can handle it. I actually love that one.

'Will try and think of more examples.

Pls don't quote

[12YearsABlob]

"sun opp moon can be ideal, if you want an emotional relationship or can handle it."*

...and if there are no contra-indications (IMO). Again, this is solely my experience, but since you're asking about real life vs cookbook..some aspects can make planets resemble/be compatible with a different element than you would expect. In those cases, IME, a Sun-moon opposition falls way short of any emotional connection. If, however, your Sun-moon elements are in harmony with the rest of you chart, I feel like Sun-moon oppositions can be beautifully complementary..

Lol, actually, as I write this, I'm thinking this might be a "debunking" of a different kind.. Well, for some people, anyway!

*Not attributing for anon; let me know if you'd like me take off that quote up there..

[12YearsABlob]

FruityLlama,

Great thread, btw.. I'll post examples as and when I can think of any.

Ava, An unaspected composite Sun always looks bleak to me too!

[FruityLlama]

Thanks for your replies Ava and 12YearsABlob !

12YearsABlob , thank you!! Just to clarify, wrt the sun-moon opposition, do you mean you don't find these to resemble an emotional connection usually?

I've also just observed in my grandparents composite that there are numerous close squares to Pluto, which I'm sure would be another thing people would fearmonger about. Again, theyre not plutonic people really either so it just makes you wonder. They love each other dearly but its not a marriage without issues either, like most, but I wouldn't say their issues are really Pluto-squary.

Will be back!

[FruityLlama]

You might be onto something with the unaspected nodes Ava ... just looked at Nicole Scherzinger and Lewis Hamilton- he has two possible birthtimes on astro so Ive used both but either chart shows an unaspected node- well, actually I tell a lie, it aspects Uranus and Pluto but do you mean personal planets more so are not aspected in unsuccessful partnerships?

Although I'm sure I'll find a couple who have been married 150 years or whatever with this now haha

Nic and Lew also have a tight Saturn opp. Sun too though...

[12YearsABlob]

Mar 29, 2020 11:11:31 GMT FruityLlama said:

12YearsABlob , thank you!! Just to clarify, wrt the sun-moon opposition, do you mean you don't find these to resemble an emotional connection usually?

For me, yes, strictly in the tropical sense. But this aspect is a classic! All the books and definitions swear by it (with good reason).. It just might not be as great a connection for everyone if those signs don't "get you" on an emotional level..

Mar 29, 2020 11:11:31 GMT FruityLlama said:

I've also just observed in my grandparents composite that there are numerous close squares to Pluto, which I'm sure would be another thing people would fearmonger about. Again, theyre not plutonic people really either so it just makes you wonder. They love each other dearly but its not a marriage without issues either, like most, but I wouldn't say their issues are really Pluto-squary.

Will be back!

Hmm.. Pluto squares in the composite: my first thought was that those struggles might be internal. i.e., not visible to people outside the relationship.. Secondly, they don't necessarily mean huge power struggles, especially if neither of the people involved are Plutonion (that helps a lot, actually).. Maybe mild ones, then. Thirdly, those aspects might simply cause one or both to change a lot about their lifestyle(s) while building this relationship.. So, the cliche about "transformation" could apply.. Another thing to consider about composite Pluto aspects, is how they deal with "outside forces".. At best, composite Pluto aspects present a formidable front, their combined energy being stronger than the both of them put together..

[FruityLlama]

12YearsABlob

Thank you for that! Ah so different signs may gel with their opposition better than others?

Yes, now you mention it, those pluto aspects probably are apparent. I suppose a lot of astrology is contextual as well. My grandparents were fairly progressive in that my nana worked at a time when women didn't usually. I think though that there were and still are old fashioned, not so healthy patterns there- the way my nana is expected to run around after her husband for example, even in her ill health now. As a couple they are stubborn and deal with outside stuff by sticking their heads in the sand, especially if its too painful. Perhaps thats the square effect, I don't know...
I don't mean to sound like I'm bitching about them, definitely not, but perhaps thats where Pluto comes in, its just that I would have thought Pluto would force you to look at reality...sometimes I think my grandparents are more neptunian in that way, but they don't have any close aspects to neptune in the composite either!

I suppose they did change their lifestyles for each other in a way, but not any differently than couples do anyway- I mean like moving to a different county or changing job in order to be closer to them, that sort of thing.

[12YearsABlob]

Mar 29, 2020 11:42:15 GMT FruityLlama said:

12YearsABlob

Thank you for that! Ah so different signs may gel with their opposition better than others?

Kind of..Only if they're challenged natally, or like I said earlier, the rest of the chart does not gel with that sign's energy. For instance, if you have fire luminaries, but they're in heavy contact with Neptune/Pluto, and the rest of your chart is also watery, you're not totally made of fire energy. Same for any other element: Say, a water sun with fire moon and inner air/fire planets - they'll do better with fire signs than water. So, I wasn't saying that "X" sign does not do well with Sun-moon oppositions, just that "X's chart" may not do well with Sun-Moon conj./oppositions.

Mar 29, 2020 11:42:15 GMT FruityLlama said:

I don't mean to sound like I'm bitching about them, definitely not, but perhaps thats where Pluto comes in, its just that I would have thought Pluto would force you to look at reality...sometimes I think my grandparents are more neptunian in that way, but they don't have any close aspects to neptune in the composite either!

Aah, I wonder what causes that.. maybe we'll need to look at their charts more closely to figure that out. Although I do think you're right about stubbornness being a hallmark of Pluto..!

[lumina]

What are the composite relationship houses though? (yeah I am about to split hairs ).

Since the composite is the chart of a relationship of two people, wouldn`t the traditional relationship houses be more about relationship of the couple with other people?
We are so keen on the 7th house,b ut seriously, in a natal chart the 7th house shows how we approach relationships on a one to one level, and who comes into your lives and also in some cases the energy of these relationships. So wouldn`t this, projected onto a composite chart, show more about the couple`s approach to relating to other people, and how their relationships as a couple with them would be and even what energy other people bring into the personal life of the couple?

And so wouldn`t the true relationship houses about the relationhips between two people in a composite rather be found in the personal houses, like 1-6?


Yeah I sometimes like splitting hairs. LOL

[lumina]

and also of course no relationship is an island, we are social creatures, and even tristan and Isolde couldn`t bear being just a twosome, they had to reconnect with the court (society), even though it meant the breaking up of their twosomeness.

[12YearsABlob]

Mar 29, 2020 12:10:37 GMT lumina said:

And so wouldn`t the true relationship houses about the relationhips between two people in a composite rather be found in the personal houses, like 1-6?

Lol, yeah.. I read that somewhere, and it makes sense to me. 1st house = "us" instead of "me" and so on.. Because the composite chart is the chart of the relationship.. Comp 7th house = how the couple deals with other people, MC = how they're seen by broader groups of people? Etc..

[FruityLlama]

12YearsABlob

Ahhh sorry, I'm being dim, yes the holistic approach is always best.
Sorry to keep pestering, but I'm looking at a certain persons chart and they are a Taurus Sun, Scorpio moon but there's not an opposition between them as such, however the moon is totally unaspected save for a 3deg opp to Chiron. In the case of an unaspected luminary like this, would a synastric opposition and conjunction to both pull them together in a way?
This person has a mix of Aries and Taurus in their personal planets.

Wrt my grandparents, tbf I don't have time of birth so it may be that in the composite those planets are on an axis, or perhaps Pluto is in the 12th...I'd have to play around because all I know is my grandad was born in the early hours so he could be anything from an aries ASC to about a gemini, and I suspect he is an aries ASC actually.

lumina that's a good point, composite houses are not talked about that much are they but it makes sense they would take on a different meaning than in natal so there's that to consider.

[Ava]

12YearsABlob ,

Mar 29, 2020 10:39:49 GMT 12YearsABlob said:

"sun opp moon can be ideal, if you want an emotional relationship or can handle it."*

...and if there are no contra-indications (IMO). Again, this is solely my experience, but since you're asking about real life vs cookbook..some aspects can make planets resemble/be compatible with a different element than you would expect. In those cases, IME, a Sun-moon opposition falls way short of any emotional connection. If, however, your Sun-moon elements are in harmony with the rest of you chart, I feel like Sun-moon oppositions can be beautifully complementary..

Lol, actually, as I write this, I'm thinking this might be a "debunking" of a different kind.. Well, for some people, anyway!

*Not attributing for anon; let me know if you'd like me take off that quote up there..

Good point, it always depends. That's why cookbook astrology can be ridiculous. I haven't known many Cancer moons (they hide), but I've dealt with them enough to know there is potential for things to go wrong, I mean catastrophically wrong. Like two kids wrestling on the floor of a nice living room, knocking over furniture and breaking expensive lamps. It affects more than just the two kids. (Not that my Cancer moon sister and I ever did that, but our clashes had repercussions.) But, you take each luminary and examine it, and there are clues for how the dynamic will manifest. More clues if you look at the draconic charts, progressions, etc. My sister's draconic moon in Gemini opposes my draconic Saturn.

FruityLlama ,

I was thinking of the composite chart, comp nodes aspecting comp planets, but now that you mention it, unaspected synastry nodes would be a little "red flag" to me as well. I do consider outer planets important here, possibly outweighing the significance of personal planets. I guess it depends.

That's a whole rift in astrology, the absolutists versus the...interpretationists (?). (What's a better word?) Absolutism is easier money than interpretationism. If you believe the aspect is always going to do the same thing in every situation, you can practically cut and paste a "private reading" for a client. I have no clients and enjoy digging through layers of charts, and that's a matter of preference which, over time, has formed my philosophy of life...to acknowledge and learn from complexity, paradox, and timing.

Not everyone thinks that way or wants to. Long marriages for example are often the result of cultural and financial pressures and upbringing more than an indication of optimal compatibility. The long marriage story dulls out all the ups and downs the couple's endured.

Sometimes the best compatibility seems to conjure up impossibly big dreams in both people, and the whole thing goes bust, where it wouldn't have, if they were only less infatuated and a bit more disgruntled. If you're already a little miserable in the relationship, you aren't so allergic to the other miseries of life, you're inured to the idea that sh*t happens. But if you are all cuddled up in a totally sweet relationship, I don't know....that can be insular, degenerative over the long haul, fragile. (Don't get me wrong, I would choose that if I could, anyway. lol...But I'm aware of certain trade-offs.)

I guess I'm stating the obvious, that compatibility requires squares and hardship just to spur itself onward and feel like things are happening. Squares can generate friction and heat.

Pls don't quote
My typos are wretched lately and I have to edit over and over

[lumina]

cook book examples have their merits though. but as usually the whole context has to be considered. It`s like ou have words in a language, but the combination of those words make the whole meaning and sometimes a whole difference.

one of my examples is the 7th house and its ruler. what is true is that probably we pay attention when someone really activates our 7th house. however positive or negative or just fleeting attention? That depends on the whole chart, esp. the other personal planets.

my 7th house is in Gemini. Doesn`t usually happen for me in crushes even (well to be fair though recently more and more guys with Mars or Draco Mars in Gemini, usually around the cusp of my DESC, have come to my attention).


ruler of 7th house is in Sag conjunct Sun - aww, that is one attractive scenario! (I guess I just like people who are like me. lol )


Why though? Why do I prefer the ruler sign to the actual sign on my DESC?

I do think the reason is that Gemini is opposing my Sun, Mercury, Mars-sign, which could have been attractive of course, but the opposition usually can go either way.

Gemini also is quinkunx my Venus-sign, and my Venus has a lot to say about attractions for me (because it has to do with values, if I do not value the same stuff as you do, then sorry, not going to happen, not even in a crush).

It is however trine my Aqua Moon of course, but well that seems to be not strong enough. also Gemini Sun usually comes with Gemini-Taurus-Cancer Mercury and or Venus, seems to be just too far away from my personality. and ruler of 7th already sais I like people who have similiarities to me (ruler of 7th in 1st house).

[12YearsABlob]

Mar 29, 2020 12:29:00 GMT FruityLlama said:

12YearsABlob

Ahhh sorry, I'm being dim, yes the holistic approach is always best.

You're not being dim! I ask a zillion questions too. 'Wish more people took time to understand what I'm saying (like you are) instead of projecting their own stuff.. It's refreshing.

Mar 29, 2020 12:29:00 GMT FruityLlama said:

Sorry to keep pestering, but I'm looking at a certain persons chart and they are a Taurus Sun, Scorpio moon but there's not an opposition between them as such, however the moon is totally unaspected save for a 3deg opp to Chiron. In the case of an unaspected luminary like this, would a synastric opposition and conjunction to both pull them together in a way?
This person has a mix of Aries and Taurus in their personal planets.

That's a good point! Completion of patterns can be really magnetic in synastry..

Mar 29, 2020 12:29:00 GMT FruityLlama said:

Wrt my grandparents, tbf I don't have time of birth so it may be that in the composite those planets are on an axis, or perhaps Pluto is in the 12th...I'd have to play around because all I know is my grandad was born in the early hours so he could be anything from an aries ASC to about a gemini, and I suspect he is an aries ASC actually.

Aww shucks, no birth time...but still, maybe you'd be able to see their natals/synastry on some level.. Angles are weirdly accurate sometimes. My ex later dated someone whose venus was near the same degree as my moon, but he has no planets there. Which makes me think he must have an angle on that degree. Another example: friend with whom I have pretty average synastry..I recently discovered her Dsc is on my Sun. Looks like there are some mysteries that only birth time can unlock.. :/

[12YearsABlob]

Mar 29, 2020 12:40:46 GMT lumina said:

cook book examples have their merits though. but as usually the whole context has to be considered. It`s like ou have words in a language, but the combination of those words make the whole meaning and sometimes a whole difference.

Right... I'd probably mentioned on one of my deleted posts, that the Sun-Moon thing (and some other aspect/s) work(s) for me "in spirit" if you consider other aspects/charts (which most astrologers don't). It just doesn't work in the narrow tropical, 3-degree aspect interpretation.

Ava , Thanks for lending credibility to draconics! I'm not sure why other astrologers don't use them as much (maybe because they can't make money off of them, like you said). Btw, that thing about sibling fights cracked me up. xD

[Ava]

Mar 29, 2020 12:10:37 GMT lumina said:

We are so keen on the 7th house,b ut seriously, in a natal chart the 7th house shows how we approach relationships on a one to one level, and who comes into your lives and also in some cases the energy of these relationships. So wouldn`t this, projected onto a composite chart, show more about the couple`s approach to relating to other people, and how their relationships as a couple with them would be and even what energy other people bring into the personal life of the couple?

And so wouldn`t the true relationship houses about the relationhips between two people in a composite rather be found in the personal houses, like 1-6?

I get what you're saying about the 7th house but not the other houses. 

Could you give a quick synopsis of the meaning of composite houses 1-6? 

Edit: Also, comp 8th house?

I've said this before, composite sun in Scorpio tends to manifest for me as one would expect (it's deep), and I've seen comp 8th house sun likened to comp Scorpio sun before. 

[Ava]

Mar 29, 2020 12:12:11 GMT lumina said:

and also of course no relationship is an island, we are social creatures, and even tristan and Isolde couldn`t bear being just a twosome, they had to reconnect with the court (society), even though it meant the breaking up of their twosomeness.

Is that how it went? My husband loves that opera, but he never took me there (maybe because I hate the opera).

1966 Tristan
211 Isolda

I guess this is a whole other thread.