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Post by glaucus on Feb 16, 2019 2:24:29 GMT
LILITH AND THE BLACK MOON by Juan Antonio Revilla Juan Revilla is one of the astrologers that influenced me in regards to my interest in centaurs and transneptunian objects when I became interested in them 14 years ago. He is an astronomically oriented astrologer like Zane Stein, Jonathan Dunn, and Philip Sedgwick who are other astrologers that influenced me in regards to my interest in centaurs and transneptunian objects. He wrote an insightful article about Lilith and the Black Moon. His view is that the Osculating Lunar Apogee (aka True Black Moon) and not the Mean Lunar Apogee (aka Mean Black Moon) that fits the symbolism of Lilith. He wrote that the round movement of the Mean Lunar Apogee is not a good representative of the nocturnal and magic demoness Lilith. He points out that the roundness and steady motion belongs to the Sun and is alien to the world of the Moon. He points out that some people reject the Osculating Lunar Apogee in favor of the Mean Lunar Apogee because it makes no sense to them to have it swing as much as 30 degrees from the mean position and have abrupt and irregular changes of velocity and direction, but he thinks that it is precisely this erratic behavior that makes the Osculating Lunar Apogee the best representative of the irrational, instinctive, and primal symbolism of Lilith. He points out that , the Black Moon (he is referring to only Osculating Lunar Apogee) is astronomically an isolated point, a point of neglect, repression, fermentation, and "magical" transformations that belong to a phantasmal,nocturnal, and instinctive/erotic world. He wrote that it contains all the more instinctual energies (including the atavistic wisdom and clairvoyance, which is dependent on bodily functions) deep within the psyche, of which sexuality is of course paramount, and which manifest themselves in fairy tales and in primitive lunar symbolism: the night, the mystery, the magic, the danger, the secret, the fear, that which is forbidden. He wrote that the Black Moon takes hold of our emotions. He wrote that it is a reactive point, never a point of integration, and so it can cause strong identifications or very powerful projections of unconscious emotions which may not be recognized as such. His feeling is that the Black Moon always works at this reactive level. He wrote that the traditional negative or "demonic" associations of Lilith are rejected as being the result of the Judeo-Christian "male superiority" and "ego" ideologies. He said that this doesn't change to him the fact that there are still many demons inside of both men and women, and that the world of the night with all its mystery and magic still exists, although in areas and in ways different from those of the past. www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/lilith.html?fbclid=IwAR2mvO0rbVoTMPEQwgc1u77WPTnIc9Ac9PtlKgcOvO12XmOtLcoxW8aYAH4 I have an interest in the Osculating Lunar Apogee because it's prominent in my chart. using tropical zodiac, Osculating Lunar Apogee in 5'42 Scorpio Retrograde conjunct Sun in 5'20 Scorpio I guess that I am Black Moon Lilith Man. I view it as as challenge instead of a gift. I admit that I have strong feminine traits even though I am not homosexual nor transgender. I have 5 mythical female asteroids conjunct my Sun within 1 degree and so they add to the strong female theme of True Black Moon Lilith 2 are named after Greek Princesses 2 are named after Egyptian Goddesses 1 is named after a Roman Goddess Ariadne in 5'02 Scorpio - In Greek mythology, daughter of King Minos and Queen Pasiphae of Crete who aided Theseus through the Labyrinth,gets abandoned by him, and married the god, Dionysus Selqet in 4'44 Scorpio - In Egyptian mythology, the goddess of scorpians and magic. She watched over Qebehsenuef, one of the four sons of Horus, who in turn protected the intestines of the deceased. She was known as "Lady of the Beautiful Tent" which referred to her as a protector of the embalmer's tent. In the Afterlife she was said to watch over a dangerous twist in a pathway. She was also credited with guarding the snake, Apep following his imprisonment in the Underworld. She was also associated with childbirth and nursing. In the Book of the Dead, she is a protector of the deceased and his teeth are identified with hers. Magically, Selket was a protector from venomous bites. She was the patroness of magicians who dealt with poisoness bites. Iphigenia in 4'43 Scorpio - In Greek mythology, daughter of King Agamemnon and Queen Clytemnesta of Mycenae who is sacrificed for fair winds to sail to Troy for the Greeks to fight the Trojans in Trojan War Aurora in 4'27 Scorpio - in Roman mythology, Goddess of the Dawn Athor in 6'14 Scorpio - In Egyptian mythology, the horned cow-goddess of love, she was also the deity of happiness, dance and music, and a protector of women. Her cult was centered in Dendera where she was a goddess of fertility and childbirth. In Thebes she was seen as a goddess of the dead, and the Greeks identified her with Aphrodite (their goddess of love).
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Post by glaucus on Feb 16, 2019 2:47:38 GMT
Ever since learning about planetary nodes and perihelion/aphelion and perigree/apogeee, I have been getting interested in the astronomy of astrology. all the heavenly bodies have nodes and perigree/apogee and perihelion/aphelion Black Moon Lilith is the lunar apogee, and so it's the point of the orbit where it's farthest from the Earth. The lunar perigree is the point of the orbit where it's closest to the Earth. Because its the lunar apogee/perigree axis, I think that naming it Lilith is taking away from or denying the lunar symbolism. My Sun is conjunct the true lunar apogee with 22 minutes of arc,and so the Sun is fused with lunar symbolism. My Sun trines Moon with 2'10 orb. So with my Sun trine Moon and conjunct its apogee/oppose its perigree, I am strongly connected to the lunar symbolism like the feminine archetype,and I do have strong feminine traits for a male that have led to problems for me. With Sun as the father,with the apogee/perigree connection,my father had strong feminine traits too and they probably led him to have problems in society. The point of the orbit of a planet closest to the earth is perigree and the farthest point away from the planet is apogee. Some astrologers use the perigree/apogee of other planets too when using geocentric(earth-centered)chart. The point of the orbit of a planet closest to the Sun is perihelion and the farthest point away from the Sun is aphelion. Some astrologers use perihelion/aphelion of other planets too when using heliocentric(Sun-centered)chart. My Mercury is conjunct its Apogee in Geocentric chart. My Mercury is conjunct its Aphelion/oppose its Perihelion in Heliocentric Chart. These configurations indicate strong Mercurial symbolism but also problematic too. Astronomically oriented Astrologers told me that you can use all the Ptolemaic Aspects with the perigree/apogee and the perihelion/aphelion axises here is a site that shows perihelion/aphelion www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/physical_science/physics/mechanics/orbit/perihelion_aphelion.html&edu=highThe terms perihelion and aphelion apply specifically to objects orbiting the Sun. There are similar terms for the closest and furthest points in orbits around other bodies, such as Earth, the Moon, and other planets and stars. The most commonly used are: * Earth - perigee and apogee * Moon - perilune (or periselene) and apolune (or aposelene) * a star - periastron and apastron * Jupiter - perijove and apojove * a generic object - periapsis or apoapsis Kepler software calculates apogee/perigree of the Moon and planets and aphelion/perihelion of the planets. I don't get why perigree is referred to as Priapus and a male energy. What happens when an object is square the lunar perigree which means that it is square the apogee, is it both a strong female and male energy? Referring to the lunar perigree as priapus and say that it has to do with male energy takes away from the lunar symbolism of the lunar perigree. Lunar perigree is the closest point of the moon's orbit to the earth. If anything,it would seem that would be a strong lunar symbolism,and have a feminine energy. A conjunction to the perigree or its heliocentric equivalent perihelion of an object would seem that it would relate to symbolism of that object...the same thing with apogee or its heliocentric equivalent,aphelion. Moon is not necessarily feminine Of course, the Greek and Roman lunar deities were female In Mesopotamian Mythology, the lunar deities were male In Indian Mythology, the lunar deity was male In Norse mythology, the moon was male
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Post by Ava on Aug 10, 2021 20:59:02 GMT
I don't get why perigree is referred to as Priapus and a male energy. What happens when an object is square the lunar perigree which means that it is square the apogee, is it both a strong female and male energy? Referring to the lunar perigree as priapus and say that it has to do with male energy takes away from the lunar symbolism of the lunar perigree. Lunar perigree is the closest point of the moon's orbit to the earth. If anything,it would seem that would be a strong lunar symbolism,and have a feminine energy. A conjunction to the perigree or its heliocentric equivalent perihelion of an object would seem that it would relate to symbolism of that object...the same thing with apogee or its heliocentric equivalent,aphelion. Moon is not necessarily feminine Of course, the Greek and Roman lunar deities were female In Mesopotamian Mythology, the lunar deities were male In Indian Mythology, the lunar deity was male In Norse mythology, the moon was male Very belated thank you for the posts above glaucus . In a very esoteric and personal way I have associated Priapus with male energy because my solar plexus seems to respond to planets *men* have that are conjunct my Priapus, and I've seen it argued that the solar plexus is stronger in men. So maybe Priapus represents a point of potential energetic transfer from male to female? Also if their Priapus is conjunct mine or their Lilith directly opposes my Priapus it seems to be a sort of live-wire axis, but I'm working on very few examples, might be coincidence. When the full moon is at perigee (supermoon), natural disasters are more common: in.news.yahoo.com/blogs/geewhiz/supermoon-may-cause-natural-disasters-next-week-20110309-020911-225.htmlI hope it's not controversial to make the point that men are, on average, physically stronger than women and capable of exerting more force, and likewise these supermoon phenomena are forceful (arguably more male). They are also external physical disruptions (yang/male), while Lilith disruptions are more internal, inscrutable (yin/female) . Just some thoughts, might be wrong.
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Post by Ava on Aug 10, 2021 21:23:45 GMT
Moon at perigee and apogee 1901-2020 www.astropixels.com/ephemeris/moon/fullperigee1901.html2021-2040 www.astropixels.com/ephemeris/moon/moonperap2001.htmlTrying to out the relationship between perigee, apogee, the nodes, and eclipses. I see the moon is sometimes at perigee on eclipse dates, but sometimes not. Comparing eclipse dates here with the list in the link above: 1. May 26th we had a full moon total lunar eclipse and the moon was at perigee on May 26th (that's why it's a total eclipse?) 2. June 10th, new moon annular solar eclipse (not total) and the moon was not at perigee (it was there June 8th). 3. Nov 19th we have a full moon partial eclipse. The moon will not be not at apogee until the 21st (that's why it's a partial eclipse I assume) 4. Dec 4th we have a new moon total solar eclipse and the moon is at perigee (so total must mean, moon at perigee). Dec 18th there is a full moon with the moon at apogee ( lumina ) but no eclipse (nodes too far from this lunation). Edit: I understand this is probably common knowledge and may have been mentioned already on this thread but my brain is slow sometimes and I also forget things.
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Post by Ava on Aug 10, 2021 21:51:04 GMT
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 13:42:08 GMT
Osculating (h13) Lilith sure does move fast sometimes. Noon in my location, it's at: 29.46 Taurus today 4.16 Gemini tomorrow 8.45 Gemini the day after So it's speeding past the NN lately. Meanwhile (h21) true (i) Lilith is slow: 1.10 Gem today 1.21 Gem tomorrow 1.33 Gem the day after I don't know if it's always slow or not. I wonder what can be said about the times when the two meet up? h13 and h21...astronomically I wonder what that represents. I'm sure the answer is in this thread somewhere (?) I just don't feel like skimming it all again. === As I said above, perigee is August 17th this month. Here is the chart for moon conjunct Priapus, 5:17 am EST. I could never get the moon, h13 (o) true Lilith and Priapus Rx all at the same degree and minute. By 5:25 am Lilith and Priapus are exactly opposed @ 17°46 of their respective signs, while the moon has moved on a few minutes of orb to 17°51 Sag. As for speed, 24 hours after that exact Lilith/Priapus opposition, Lilith is @ 18°53 Gem; 24 hours after that it's @ 20.00 Gem. So I see how it stabilizes/decelerates around the time of its perigee even though by then Priapus is already @ 15°48 Sag Rx (48 hours after opposition).
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 14:33:15 GMT
Talking to myself, lol I assume one of the Liliths represents that precise time of moon at perigee. Yes, h13 true natural osculating (o) Lilith is that Lilith. But by the time the moon reaches THAT marked-out apogee, moving apogee has already moved on. So maybe that's another Lilith? It's where the apogee is when the moon is at the place opposite the last perigee. Not too wrong! That is not just one but maybe both of the other Liliths, mean Lilith (astro's default glyph Lilith) and h21 (i) Lilith. When the moon is @ 17.46 Gemini (here on Aug 31, 12:47 am EST) where (o) Lilith was when it opposed moon-Priapus exactly , then we have this Lilith-clumping: 3.25 Gem h13 (o) Lilith 4.51 Gem mean (glyph) Lilith 4.59 Gem h21 (i) Lilith Obviously mean Lilith there is not in the exact (o)/(i) Liliths' midpoint. I don't know if that's because my timing is slightly off here and there, or I'm just too far out of my depth to nail the particulars, but I'm pleased I found something when I thought something would appear. Sorry if everyone grasped all this ages ago but I'm a visual learner and had to see how things move in the charts before I finally got it.
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Post by lumina on Aug 11, 2021 14:38:19 GMT
I assume one of the Liliths represents that precise time of moon at perigee. Yes, h13 true natural osculating (o) Lilith is that Lilith. No, it isn`t. Lilith conjunct Moon represents the apogee, not the perigee.
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 14:41:25 GMT
lumina , ? I didn't say Lilith conjunct moon.
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 15:06:37 GMT
But thanks for the pro tip. Okay here we go....for all my fellow somewhat-hobbled visual learners who CANNOT see this without charts: When the moon is exact on glyph-Lilith, (o) and (i) Liliths are exactly conjunct. That chart is Aug 29, 10:20 pm EST. Two minutes later: 4.44 Gem glyph-Lilith 4.45 Gem moon 4.45 Gem (o) Lilith 4.46 Gem (1) Lilith I do prefer to understand h13 Lilith FIRST as the apogee when the moon is conjunct perigee, because it creates the visual of Lilith-Priapus exactly opposed, with the moon on Priapus. Simple. And as you see you don't get that visual with the moon conjunct h13 Lilith. You get the other visual of the Lilith-clumping, and Priapus isn't in a predictable spot (to me). I know both h13 positions are important. I just wonder what I'm missing. Will the moon conjunct Priapus at the point opposite to that early Gem stellium? Is the next moon-Priapus conjunction predicted by the previous Lilith-moon stellium? Edit: Answer is no. In that case Priapus Rx didn't advance into Sag (to oppose Gem Lilith stellium) but rolled back for the next moon-Priapus conjunction @ 16 Scorpio, early Sept 11th here. So apparently the other Liliths, mean and (i), are just holding space waiting for the next conjunction of h13 (o) Lilith to the moon.
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Post by lumina on Aug 11, 2021 15:24:33 GMT
lumina , ? I didn't say Lilith conjunct moon. You said "Moon at Perigee", but Priapus represents that. Lilith represents Moon at apogee. And usually in astrological jargon the word "at" is used to signify a conjunction. Unless you meant not just Lilith, but the whole LIlith-Priapus-complex so including the opposition as well. The apogee is when Moon has the greatest distance from earth. The perigee is when Moon has the greatest proximity to earth. Examples:2nd august 2021 at 7:36a.m. UTC Moon was at apogee, so Lilith must have been conjunct Moon (as this is the definition of the apogee in astrological terms). As you can see, from this we cannot decide if h13 or h21 is the right one, because they both coincide exactly with the Moon (and in some years previously I have tried that out with several years, it is ALWAYS the case, they always coincide at that point, and then diverge) BTW this is my source for the date: www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/pacalc.htmlNow if we are having a Perigee-Moon (just been gobsmacked to see that on the last Dracula-viewing there WAS Moon at perigee, no wonder I was so fascinated with it. I was just standing there and taking pictures of the Moon. lol Well except for the time I was watching the show or hugging men ) Anyway if we have Moon at Perigee, Priapus needs to be conjunct the Moon exactly. You will see what happens: I am not exactly sure why there is a minimal orb of 5 minutes between Priapus and the Moon, that shouldn`t be like that. Maybe I put in the wrong place, or it has something to do with astro.com not calculating from the barycentre of earth I believe, don`t know. However what becomes evident is that interpolated Priapus and true Priapus (which , different to interpolated Priapus, is always exactly opposite true Lilith h13) are conjunct. If we are VERY precise interpolated Priapus is one minute closer to the Moon here, but anyway that is probably neglible. However it means we cannot make a decision based on this, if h13 or h21/ h22 is the right one, both coincides at points when the Moon is at apogee and perigee and fulfill the definition. EDIT I did not see you had added another post. Sorry. oh and btw, for the first chart, Priapus doesn`t have to be in the "expected spot", opposite the Moon, cause the definition for Priapus is basically focused on "conjunct Moon at the exact time of perigee", but at the apogee, it can actually be in the range of an opposition or quinkunx, in broad terms, it does not have to be the exact aspect.
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 15:33:12 GMT
lumina , ? I didn't say Lilith conjunct moon. You said "Moon at Perigee" I didn't. Well you'll have to read my whole sentence again to see what I meant. "I assume one of the Liliths represents that precise time of moon at perigee." Since Lilith is obviously generally defined as apogee, and apogee and perigee do exactly oppose each other each month, I find it useful to understand Lilith as the time when the moon is at perigee, exactly opposing apogee (Lilith).
And then I saw h13 is the one that does that. Well I explained my logic more above.
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Post by lumina on Aug 11, 2021 15:33:40 GMT
just sharing this excerpt here too "As has been said above, the osculating lunar apogee (so-called "true Lilith") is a mathematical construct which assumes that the motion of the moon is a two-body problem. This solution is obviously too simplistic. Although Kepler ellipses are a good means to describe planetary orbits, they fail with the orbit of the moon, which is strongly perturbed by the gravitational pull of the sun. This solar perturbation results in gigantic monthly oscillations in the ephemeris of the osculating apsides (the amplitude is 30 degrees). These oscillations have to be considered an <i>artifact</i> of the insufficient model, they do not really show a motion of the apsides. A more sensible solution seems to be an interpolation between the real passages of the moon through its apogees and perigees. It turns out that the motions of the lunar perigee and apogee form curves of different quality and the two points are usually not in opposition to each other. They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or at an angle of 90° from them. The amplitude of their oscillation about the mean position is 5 degrees for the apogee and 25 degrees for the perigee. This solution has been called the "<i>interpolated</i>" or "realistic" apogee and perigee by Dieter Koch in his publications. Juan Revilla prefers to call them the "<i>natural</i>" apogee and perigee. Today, Dieter Koch would prefer the designation "natural". The designation "interpolated" is a bit misleading, because it associates something that astrologers used to do everyday in old days, when they still used to work with printed ephemerides and house tables. Note on implementation (from Swiss Ephemeris Version 1.70 on): Conventional interpolation algorithms do not work well in the case of the lunar apsides. The supporting points are too far away from each other in order to provide a good interpolation, the error estimation is greater than 1 degree for the perigee. Therefore, Dieter chose a different solution. He derived an "interpolation method" from the analytical lunar theory which we have in the form of moshier's lunar ephemeris. This "interpolation method" has not only the advantage that it probably makes more sense, but also that the curve and its derivation are both continuous. Literature (in German): - Dieter Koch, "Was ist Lilith und welche Ephemeride ist richtig", in: Meridian 1/95 - Dieter Koch and Bernhard Rindgen, "Lilith und Priapus", Frankfurt/Main, 2000. (http://www.vdhb.de/Lilith_und_Priapus/lilith_und_priapus.html) - Juan Revilla, "The Astronomical Variants of the Lunar Apogee - Black Moon", www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/blackmoon/barycentric.html© 1997 - 2014 by Astrodienst AG. License: GNU public license version 2 or later" translatedby.com/you/2-2-4-the-interpolated-or-natural-apogee-and-perigee-astrological-lilith-and-priapus/original/I am open to both possibilities, but just from my own anecdotal observations in my life found that interpolated Priapus is very active. So I guess I am more inclined to the interpolated version, at least at this time.
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Post by lumina on Aug 11, 2021 15:35:52 GMT
"Ava Avatar
17 hours ago Ava said:
I assume one of the Liliths represents that precise time of moon at perigee."
For some reason I can`t put it in quotes, but that was what I was responding to.
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 15:43:39 GMT
"Ava Avatar 17 hours ago Ava said: I assume one of the Liliths represents that precise time of moon at perigee." For some reason I can`t put it in quotes, but that was what I was responding to. Okay I'm sorry to have confused you, I tried to fill in the missing steps in my process in my last post above. I thought I presented my info clearly enough that if that sentence were read in context, it would make sense. But I don't mean to burden anyone reading my long posts because they have contained errors. Edit - And all that, just for my own understanding it's the (o) Lilith that will exactly oppose Priapus with the moon on Priapus, not the other Liliths. So for me that one stands out from the crowd now.
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 16:36:55 GMT
I am open to both possibilities, but just from my own anecdotal observations in my life found that interpolated Priapus is very active. So I guess I am more inclined to the interpolated version, at least at this time. Is there an option for (i) Priapus on your software? Considering that article I assume we are not supposed to just use the opposite point of (i) Lilith. ROFL nevermind
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Post by lumina on Aug 11, 2021 16:37:49 GMT
I am open to both possibilities, but just from my own anecdotal observations in my life found that interpolated Priapus is very active. So I guess I am more inclined to the interpolated version, at least at this time. Is there an option for (i) Priapus on your software? Considering that article I assume we are not supposed to just use the opposite point of (i) Lilith. No, but astro.com has it. It is h22.
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 16:54:13 GMT
Now I get it. So astro.com only gives us the (i) version of Priapus. When the moon is conjunct that, it will oppose (o) Lilith. Roughly speaking the whole point of (i) is, they are not usually opposed.
(i) Priapus only opposes (i) Lilith when the sun is conjunct or square to one of them:
"They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or at an angle of 90° from them."
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Post by lumina on Aug 11, 2021 17:04:44 GMT
Now I get it. So astro.com only gives us the (i) version of Priapus. When the moon is conjunct that, it will oppose (o) Lilith. Roughly speaking the whole point of (i) is, they are not usually opposed. (i) Priapus only opposes (i) Lilith when the sun is conjunct or square to one of them: "They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or at an angle of 90° from them." Definitely yes to the first part. Also I read, but cannot verify that as I am not so well versed in astronomy, that the positions of True Lilith are calculated by the assumption the Moon moves in a "Kepler elipse", but at the same time the source (German) stated that the Moon does not have a perfectly eliptic motion, because it is "changed" by the Sun. Don`t ask me exactly what that means, but it must have something to do with the gravitational forces I suppose. As for the part with the Sun, I have not checked that, but it probably is true. It probably does come down to the question if the Apogee and Perigee are indeed opposite each other or not. (I mean at all times, not just at a very specific time). If the authors are right, and the Moon`s motion really is that irregular and a "three body problem" (I suppose that refers to Moon itself, the motion around earth, as well as the influence of the Sun on Moon. I mean Moon is circling the earth and as part of the Moon-earth-combination also circles the Sun, so maybe that is meant with three body problem. But depending on the angles at certain times between Moon and earth and between Moon and Sun, maybe apogee and perigee really are not always opposite. But I don`t know that. Maybe they still are. So I cannot really come to a conclusion astronomically, though I am inclined to the interpolated degrees; those German astrologers had a long explanation in that book they wrote with the ephemeris of Priapus and Lilith (the i-versions), and it seemed very convincing at the time, but I cannot really repeat it, as I am not totally certain about the exact arguments except that I remember from it that calculating the Moon`s motion is very difficult even for astronomers. )
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Post by Ava on Aug 11, 2021 17:42:14 GMT
Now I get it. So astro.com only gives us the (i) version of Priapus. When the moon is conjunct that, it will oppose (o) Lilith. Roughly speaking the whole point of (i) is, they are not usually opposed. (i) Priapus only opposes (i) Lilith when the sun is conjunct or square to one of them: "They are more or less opposite points only at times when the sun is in conjunction with one of them or at an angle of 90° from them." Definitely yes to the first part. Also I read, but cannot verify that as I am not so well versed in astronomy, that the positions of True Lilith are calculated by the assumption the Moon moves in a "Kepler elipse", but at the same time the source (German) stated that the Moon does not have a perfectly eliptic motion, because it is "changed" by the Sun. Don`t ask me exactly what that means, but it must have something to do with the gravitational forces I suppose. As for the part with the Sun, I have not checked that, but it probably is true. It probably does come down to the question if the Apogee and Perigee are indeed opposite each other or not. (I mean at all times, not just at a very specific time). If the authors are right, and the Moon`s motion really is that irregular and a "three body problem" (I suppose that refers to Moon itself, the motion around earth, as well as the influence of the Sun on Moon. I mean Moon is circling the earth and as part of the Moon-earth-combination also circles the Sun, so maybe that is meant with three body problem. But depending on the angles at certain times between Moon and earth and between Moon and Sun, maybe apogee and perigee really are not always opposite. But I don`t know that. Maybe they still are. So I cannot really come to a conclusion astronomically, though I am inclined to the interpolated degrees; those German astrologers had a long explanation in that book they wrote with the ephemeris of Priapus and Lilith (the i-versions), and it seemed very convincing at the time, but I cannot really repeat it, as I am not totally certain about the exact arguments except that I remember from it that calculating the Moon`s motion is very difficult even for astronomers. ) Well said, I do understand all that. Sometimes it's a challenge to mark out what's conceptually knowable to basic astrologers and what is really a sophisticated issue. Or, can we turn sophisticated issues into basic things if we want, and will it make sense? I mean, for me, h13 (o) Lilith might not be significant astronomically, might not represent real-total-absolute-winner apogee. But any time you have a conjunction in one sign, there will be an issue for the opposing sign. So moon conjunct Priapus will affect opposing degrees and maybe it will feel "Lilithian" as in exaggerated somehow.
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