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Post by Ava on Jan 3, 2019 14:51:55 GMT
Thanks midnight . My vegan friend has the same birthday as you. While I admire the determination, tenacity, and consistency of veganism, the tendency of some vegans to lapse into dogmatic and judgmental attitudes is a concern. The diet is difficult and a B-12 deficiency can create irreversible damage. So, before anyone condemns eating animal products, look at the biological needs of the human body and see them for what they are. We evolved with animal foods and technically continue to need them, or we must find a substitute. But we can't ignore that the need is there, so there should be no blaming when it comes to needs. I've said this before and I'm sorry to repeat myself, it's just like a neon light flashing in my mind: I've seen too many YouTube vegans with breathing issues, "thin" breathing, voice anomalies. Vegan children who've been that way since birth tend to sound like they have stuffed noses or maybe just inhaled helium. Some don't, and I assume these are the ones whose parents took B-12 seriously (thank God.) I have a lot of gripes with YouTuber Unnatural Vegan, but I'm 100% in agreement with her position on B12: Vegans who endanger children by downplaying the B12 issue upset me. Ellen Fisher appears to be an exemplary mother, and her children are beautiful and well-fed. But I think vegans are straining to prove the issue that B-12 supplementation is unnecessary, and that attempt is experimental and not to be tried on children. I can already detect that distinctive stuffed-nose voice in her children, and she herself speaks as if she has a cold (nasally). Vegan men's voices tend to get gravelly and deep, like Ellen's husband, Tony Robbins (15 year vegan) and Matt Monarch. Anyway, it's not really a big deal, I guess, except when children are involved. If people want to experiment with their B12 sourcing on themselves alone, well, best of luck to them. There are many disgusting and revolting things about meat, I agree and grant you that, but eggs actually don't bother me. I mean, if you think of it, some of the best produce is grown out of animal manure. It's all interconnected.
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Post by midnight on Jan 3, 2019 15:50:12 GMT
I actually agree, @astrokeen Not just developing countries, but perhaps even freezing isolated places, like those in Siberia.
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Post by midnight on Jan 3, 2019 16:15:03 GMT
@ava "My vegan friend has the same birthday as you." Awww <3 She must be awesome Unnatural Vegan is one of my favourite vegan youtubers I agree with many of her views. Ellen Fisher is a different level vegan all together. She is mostly raw vegan, which I probably would never be able to be, because I love cooked and hot food a lot. To be honest, I don't even like greens that much I add spinach to many of my meals, but that's about it. Fully Raw Kristina is another example of a raw vegan, who doesn't supplement (she didn't a few years back, don't know about now though). I agree that people need to supplement when they don't have a balanced diet. Thankfully, I live n a country where I have an access to a big choice of groceries. Just a bowl of cereal with oats milk, that I have in the morning, has a daily dosage of b12, calcium and protein. You are right, b12 is essential. Everybody needs to make sure they have enough of it daily. Please don't think I'm here to shove my Virgo Mercury in your face I read a lot of things about b12 before, and remember how one of the studies showed that b12 deficiency is sometimes inherited. Also, a number of studies were conducted, and one even showed a that up to 40% of 26-83 year olds have a low b12 already (note, vegans only make 3% of overall population), so again, it's an issue for many people, not just those on vegan diet. www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2013/december2013/vitamin-b12-deficiency-serious-consequences So ladies and gents, if you feel you need it, supplement it
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Post by midnight on Jan 3, 2019 16:15:39 GMT
Ava, I can't tag you for whatever reason :/
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2019 17:11:47 GMT
midnight, for members who changed their username to something else, you would need to tag the original username.
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Post by midnight on Jan 3, 2019 17:23:35 GMT
thank you @astrokeen
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Post by Ava on Jan 22, 2019 22:25:49 GMT
I agree that people need to supplement when they don't have a balanced diet. I believe it's extremely important for all vegans to supplement. Macrobiotic chef Christina Pirello has been a food inspiration to me for a long time. She cooks some of the highest-quality vegan food imaginable, and she used to believe her diet had sufficient B12. This error nearly cost her her life: Supplementation is cheap, so why not err on the side of caution? I hope all vegans will.
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Post by anela on Jan 22, 2019 23:56:37 GMT
Ava, I can't tag you for whatever reason :/ I think you still have to use her previous name. It will still show as Ava, though.
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Post by anela on Jan 22, 2019 23:56:50 GMT
Ava testing. Yep.
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Post by midnight on Jan 23, 2019 19:24:04 GMT
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Post by Ava on Jan 30, 2019 1:27:04 GMT
Out of concern for my newly vegan friend I have been examining this more.
Because cancer runs so strongly in my family, I've been reading health books for decades, but with the advent of YouTube, I was charmed by the apparent, vibrant health of Fully Raw Kristina, Annette Larkins, and some other raw vegans. I hadn't read books on veganism and was actually strongly persuaded against veganism by the work of Weston A. Price. His work is the main reason I will never be vegan, though I do love raw fruits and vegetables. So in an effort to be more like these healthy vegans, but knowing my limitations, my diet was mostly raw vegan this past summer (so much easier in summer), but I always included animal products, to prevent deficiencies, for safety's sake. I don't know, but I do suppose that unless monumental expense, intelligence, and effort is applied, veganism will fail to supply health. The healthy vegans seem to drink liters of fresh juice, sprout a lot, focus on nutrient density a lot. Careless vegans are sometimes complacent and do not go to these great lengths. They'll eat vegan hot dogs...but it won't work long-term that way.
Anyway I haven't wanted to pressure my friend (except when it came to B12, I did pressure her), but the more I look into veganism the more doubtful I am getting.
I object to some things about this video. It shouldn't feature children, I think they are hands-off because it wasn't their choice to be on camera, and it's cruel to "make an example" of them the way this video does. I've pointed out vegan kids' breathing problems before but I don't manipulate the scene and use music to dramatize the effects, as this video does. It's also judgmental in a way I strongly disklike. But this is the first compilation I've come across that makes a visual impact about the deterioration of many vegans, where they seem blind, indifferent, and delusional, or just very apathetic about whether they or not they live or die.
Putting this here as a cautionary note:
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Post by midnight on Jan 30, 2019 14:40:21 GMT
Ava malnurishment is a problem of many people, not just vegans. We all make a choice to look after ourselves and need to eat a balanced diet. I know it is popular to bash vegans nowadays. I really don't understand why. Well, I know, but I'll keep it to mysef Many many people suffer from eating disorders, including carnivores. I know many girls who are either anorexic or borderline. They are carnivores. So what? I bet you know some as well. Hell, my uncle is a buddist who goes to India for 6 months at a time. He is a carnivore. Last time he came back border-line anorexic with rotting teath. He said it was too hot to eat and instead of water, he drank fresh juices every day. We all make bad decisions. --- Vegan diet will be expensive if your shopping basket consists of papaya, Beyond Burger, cashew nut spread, matcha tea (I've never even tried it because it's sooo expensive. I'm afraid if I buy it, I won't like it, it will be a waste), dragon fruit, quinoa, macadamia nuts, vegan cheese, etc. It won't be expensive, if you buy rice, beans, pasta, potatoes, tofu, salad, tomatoes cucumber, bread, apples, cereal, oats, pears, peanuts, bananas, etc. As a person, who does weekly shopping and cooks from scratch most of the meals ( I do buy some vegan sausages, burgers and cheese, though), my cost of groceries is much lower. It may not be the case where you live, but here in Ireland meat is more expensive than plant sources of proteing/iron.
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Post by Ava on Jan 30, 2019 15:07:02 GMT
midnight, for the longest time I thought veganism was probably an alright diet as long as people exert effort but after watching those malnourishment compilations I won't believe it again. I have no agenda and I'm not bashing vegans. Just concerned about the safety. I do not consider the keto diet healthy either and in the past, long before keto was a popular fad, some friends went on that diet, and I was imploring them to watch out for ketosis and kidney problems (they scoffed at me.) What I'm seeing in these vegan videos is a religious type of conviction that compels many vegans to suffer, rather than subject animals to suffering. Or they cheat and lie to their audience because veganism comprises their whole status in life; they feel they cannot afford the social loss of failing at veganism, so they lie. They've admitted to it. Of course, everyone can do as they please, but I'm a little sore, feeling that I was hoodwinked by the YouTube vegan movement, fooled into believing it's safer than it is, and then being encouraging towards my friend, when now I think that was enabling something potentially harmful. Vegans habitually go without certain nutrients, and this renders them particularly vulnerable to degeneration. www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section2 The video I posted above is the first in a four-part exposé which is quite alarming. Many of the most devout YouTube vegans have been starving and physically falling apart right before our eyes. So this is something that I feel needs to be considered, so I put it on this thread, but if anyone wants to continue down that path without looking at the warnings, of course there is nothing more that I can do.
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Post by midnight on Jan 30, 2019 15:21:12 GMT
Ava Please don't underestimate the intelligence of people who surround you. Nobody in their right mind will jump to such drastical changes without doing minimum research. I know you are concerned about your friend, but I am sure she is smart enough to make sure she's eating well. Be happy you have a compationate friend, who doesn't want to be a cause of suffering. I wish I had a real-life friend like that, but unfortunately I only can rely on Facebook groups and Instagram posts Btw I am far from malnourished vegan. In fact, I'm slightly overweight. Oh and I'm due to do my blood test in 5 weeks. I am curious about seeing my results
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Post by Ava on Jan 30, 2019 16:46:25 GMT
midnightYou are still relying on the stores of nutrients you built up when you were not vegan. It takes a while for the deficiencies to begin to show. I don't underestimate my own intelligence and I, too, was fooled into thinking veganism is a viable option. Unnatural Vegan is highly intellectual as you know, and she usually cites rigorous studies backing her decisions. Yet now I'm learning that her health issues are quite bad, as she stated in a clip in one of those videos. I mean, no way would *I* be getting two periods per month, very heavy, and thinking it's not a function of diet. To me....yes, of course it is diet. But Unnatural Vegan doesn't see the correlation, despite all her meticulous research. People often just see what they want to see. Also if I knew that Christina Pirello almost died from diet-related issues within 10 years of becoming vegan, I would never have esteemed her advice as highly as I did....but she was not UP FRONT about her mistake in her books, for fear of being wrong or working against the vegan agenda. And many other vegans have been shamed into silence, causing a chain reaction of myths and misinformation to prevail. But the physical effects speak for themselves. Anyway, I see you are determined to keep going with it, and that makes me a little sad, as I don't want you to learn "the hard way," but who knows, maybe you will succeed where so many others have not.
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Post by midnight on Jan 30, 2019 20:27:09 GMT
I can give as many or even more examples of how harmful the carnivore diet is, in fairness. This whole discussion is pointless at this stage. We both said what we wanted and it's clear we are going nowhere in the discussion. I promise to eat a balanced diet with supplementation of B12, and I hope people will cut down on eating animal prducts at least once a week.
Maybe I'll throw more recipes occasionally. Hopefully, someone will find something to their taste.
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Post by justjuni on Jan 30, 2019 20:59:13 GMT
As a side note and animal lover ,I have to say that while pigs are intelligent and good mums ,they will eat human flesh as quickly as humans will eat pork roasts.
Sad on both ends but true😑
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Post by midnight on Jan 30, 2019 21:05:21 GMT
justjuni good thing we have enough mental capacity and will to make a choice not to
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Post by justjuni on Jan 30, 2019 23:53:32 GMT
Touche' 😁
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Post by Ava on Jan 31, 2019 17:49:38 GMT
midnight , my moon's @ 18 Pisces. My vegan friend's pr moon was also in Pisces when she became vegan. I tried to articulate this yesterday but it's difficult...in my opinion, there is something to be said for having a Pisces moon and becoming more spiritual and extending empathy to other creatures. But as I have lived with this my entire life, I've had to reckon with my complexities and inescapable realities, including death... For example: - Leveling forests to create farmland in which to grow grains for vegetarians, that has destroyed animal populations, by removing their habitat - Tractors that harvest plants run over mice and rabbits - Pesticides on conventional crops are toxic to animals - Deer overpopulation in my state creates a rise in the deaths of deer and humans as they collide in traffic - Plants are sentient and "scream" before they are "slaughtered" (The Secret Life of Plants was recommended to me by my Pisces moon brother many years ago) - Even water molecules are decimated by hate - Vegan nutrient imbalances can lead to anger and aggression which "scares" the water component of other beings - What if plants and animals enjoy the process of being assimilated into each other? What if we are not ABOVE the rest of the world, but truly intermingled with it? I love cows in gratitude for the dairy. I love life when I am strong. - Who supports the ethical suppliers of meat, if everyone is either vegan or buying as cheaply as possible? Who supports the transition, if the world divides itself so starkly into two camps? - Blood Type O is an obligate carnivore and will falter without meat. I don't want to condemn people to suffering. - There is more to life than the physical reality, and animals may be capable of spiritual transcendence that offsets suffering, just as humans are. We are arrogant to assume that we know all. Notes from the grey area of life as a Pisces moon. But again............ Good luck, and good health to you.
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