t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 24, 2021 13:31:07 GMT
lumina ... I wonder if National temperaments might be a factor here. When we hosted a 15 years old German student in the UK, we visited London ... and got separated from him in the London Underground, during the rush hour. We/the English were worried that we had "lost" him, in a big city where he was a stranger/had never been before. However, he just calmly proceeded to find us again and was resourceful enough to easily do so. We expressed surprise and admiration at his his flexibility/resourcefulness ... But he just said "that's how we are in Germany".
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Post by Ava on Jun 24, 2021 14:44:29 GMT
Ava ... Note that I am currently in the process of adding to my comments on your natal UFO Thank you I'm still reading. ...even to the point where I was left wondering if I had actually spoken out loud or only imagined I had done so. ... And later, someone else at the meeting would put forward the exact same view/idea as his/her own - firmly (and genuinely) believing that he/she had 'plucked it out of the air'. !!! I've had this experience many times even though it's not my Mercury at a low point. My family has heard me say this for years: sometimes it's as if people cannot hear me, I'm on mute. It's not so much that I feel sorry for myself (though I do, a little bit), but moreover I find it bewildering. Question: Could that also be a function of my Jupiter at a low point? Sometimes when I'm teaching my children something (assuming Jupiter is about teaching), they don't get it. I can't troubleshoot what I'm saying or doing wrong. I ask my husband to explain it to them because, as I've said, "I just can't teach." And later, someone else at the meeting would put forward the exact same view/idea as his/her own - firmly (and genuinely) believing that he/she had 'plucked it out of the air'. WOW... incredible. I would find that very frustrating.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 24, 2021 16:44:35 GMT
Ava ... The quoted extract from Astrological Psychology - The Huber Approach refers specifically to that issue ... "Someone with LP Jupiter in the 9th house cannot become the fount of ideas that can benefit others until that person has developed her own philosophies and understanding of the world - and this takes time. Such people may feel that they have the ability to put their own views to the world but the world will not listen, recognise or accept those views until they have been worked on and are ready to be broadcast." Having knowledge/expertise does not enable us to teach it to others. We have to learn HOW to teach (generally), and how to do so in the language of our audience (specifically). ... Otherwise, we cannot get the world/audience to listen - no matter how interested they might be in what we have to say. ... {For example, people often comment on forums that they find it difficult to focus/"take in" what David Cochrane says in his Vibrational Astrology youtube videos. Hence, he is an expert who has not yet found the best way to teach/pass-on his expertise to others.]
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Post by Ava on Jun 26, 2021 0:57:22 GMT
t5" "Someone with LP Jupiter in the 9th house cannot become the fount of ideas that can benefit others until that person has developed her own philosophies and understanding of the world - and this takes time." I suppose it's not a consistent or standardized process, coming to understand the world. It doesn't all come into focus at once. We're probably all better at teaching some things than others. I like what Deepak Chopra once said about parenting: Teach entirely by example, not lecturing. That works okay for certain things, like demonstrating patience and reliability. It doesn't work for math, in my experience. "And the 6th house message of the Sun is ... ?" Did you want my opinion or are there clues in your books already? Thanks
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 26, 2021 11:38:31 GMT
Ava ... Only you/the chart owner can ever have the detailed event-experience/knowledge to identify this correctly. However, the books provide subtle clues. ... By stating that "in the 6th house, we realise that we have a duty and a calling to serve humanity in the best way we are able and suited to. We gain an understanding of how we can give service to others by being there to help and support them." ... And by stating that "to have a good working relationship with others, we have to observe their reactions to ourselves. The challenge in the 6th house is to heed what others want from us, while at the same time remaining true to ourselves. Individuals with the Sun in 6th house will be looking for ways of serving/helping/working with/doing-for others, which are also right for themselves." Hence, I wonder if the 6th house Sun's message might be to 'not give up too soon on those who SEEM to be (and perhaps are) not hearing you'.
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Post by Ava on Jun 26, 2021 13:28:06 GMT
Thank you again t5I can see myself in that, I like to help people if I can. I tend to give up on people who treat me like cr*p. Not always. It depends. Well certain behavior turns me cold, I guess that's just stereotypical Capricorn, to go numb and not be able to care if I tried.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 27, 2021 12:33:49 GMT
Ava ... In addition to the UFO, there are several other Huber Aspect Patterns (Planetary Pictures) in your natal chart. These can be identified using the link that I gave earlier, but include :- 01. A Sun-Jupiter-Pluto Achievement Triangle. 02. A Mercury-Venus-Saturn Ambivalence Triangle. 03. A Jupiter-Neptune-Pluto Ambivalence Triangle. 04. A Mars-Neptune-Pluto Ambivalence Triangle. 05. A Mars-Jupiter-Neptune-Pluto Righteousness Rectangle. 06. A Sun-Mars-Pluto Dominant Learning Triangle. 07. A Sun-Moon-Jupiter-Neptune Shield (Incomplete, as Sun-Neptune semisextile is missing). 08. A Sun-Moon-Mars-Pluto Trapeze (incomplete, as Moon-Pluto qcx is missing). 09. A Mars-Jupiter-Moon-Neptune Animated Figure. 10. A Sun-Jupiter-Mars-Pluto Double Ambivalence Figure. (Incorrectly listed as "Ambivalence Triangle" in the link.) 11. A Mercury-Venus-Uranus Small Learning Triangle (Anti-clockwise rotation). [There may be others that I have not spotted. ... And Mercury, Venus, Saturn are all (and the only) planets located in the Huber "stress" area (between the Low Point of a house and the cusp of the next house) - so the Ambivalence Triangle at 02 might be worth looking at.]
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Post by Ava on Jun 28, 2021 2:53:02 GMT
[There may be others that I have not spotted. ... And Mercury, Venus, Saturn are all (and the only) planets located in the Huber "stress" area (between the Low Point of a house and the cusp of the next house) - so the Ambivalence Triangle at 02 might be worth looking at.] Thank you! It's a lot to look at! I found this, bold mine: So for me, Venus is the focal point/escape planet (trine Saturn, sextile Mercury). I kind of just assumed everyone is like this. What is the work of the Mercury-Saturn opposition? To stress about communication? (I do that!) Then Venus kicks its feet up, plays around, blurts out whatever it wants (Sag ), but then the whole concentration project resumes? But I am not ambivalent about these things, except insofar as I embrace my mortality and relative insignificance. Is that in line with your deeper understanding of these Huber configurations?
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Post by t5 on Jun 28, 2021 9:12:45 GMT
Ava ... Yes. Given the first sentence in your above quoted comment, the work/message of the Mercury-Saturn opposition may be to "not tar others with the same brush as yourself" - since its natal-promise is to "develop self-belief in your own ideas/views" (perhaps indicating a habitual behavioural trait of writing them off yourself, before even running them past others). However, I suspect the stress about communications comes from these two planets being located between the Low Point of their house and the cusp of the next house, since the Hubers assert that planets in that area "will be under stress to perform and respond to the expectations of the environment, so they will seek to 'deliver the goods'" - by drawing on the energy of other planets that they aspect. ... BUT, that drains energy away from the areas of the chart where the aspecting planets are located - which can cause issues/symptoms in those areas, when the stress is felt/comes home to roost. In The Living Birth Chart, Joyce Hopewell gives her example of this as a stressed Sun drawing on the physical energy of Saturn (eventually producing physical issues/symptoms when the stress is felt). However, your stressed Mercury and Saturn only aspect each other AND your (also-stressed) Venus. ... So, how does that impact upon Venus - your escape planet/mechanism (which also feels obliged to 'deliver the goods', but aspects planets other than just Mercury and Saturn)? The Hubers wrote their books in German, and (imo) ambivalence is not quite the right English word to describe what they were attempting to convey. In effect, the 'ambivalence' of this triangle = alternating between periods of work and rest. Might Venus use its conjunction with Neptune to draw on Mars and Jupiter, opting for the latter (because of the soft Neptune-Jupiter trine)? And, if yes, might Low Point Jupiter opt to drop/not pursue your ideas/views because "no-one hears them anyway"?
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Post by Ava on Jun 28, 2021 16:31:27 GMT
Amazing, t5... (perhaps indicating a habitual behavioural trait of writing them off yourself, before even running them past others). Yes, that fits. However, your stressed Mercury and Saturn only aspect each other AND your (also-stressed) Venus. ... So, how does that impact upon Venus - your escape planet/mechanism (which also feels obliged to 'deliver the goods', but aspects planets other than just Mercury and Saturn)? I count my Mercury and Saturn both square Uranus; the Saturn/Uranus square might be too wide for the Hubers, but Mercury square Uranus must count? Does Uranus factor in here? I meet new people and assume we will eventually get along and find some common ground. That's a pretty assertive Venus. Might Venus use its conjunction with Neptune to draw on Mars and Jupiter, opting for the latter (because of the soft Neptune-Jupiter trine)? And, if yes, might Low Point Jupiter opt to drop/not pursue your ideas/views because "no-one hears them anyway"? That resonates, even though I think people who know me well would not describe me that way. I think my moon aspecting Jupiter may loan that willingness to delve into things alone, with no consideration about whether or not anyone will ever hear my thoughts. My father's Pisces Jupiter was conjunct my moon, his 18° Scorpio Mercury exactly trined it, and he spent most of his free time reading, almost never sharing what he read about. So that was normal to me. We'd both be reading across the room from each other without asking any questions. So I have a history of knowing more than I let on, or just knowing random things at random times (which plays into that UFO configuration). Not sure if I answered the question.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 28, 2021 20:17:08 GMT
Ava ... Yes. I missed the valid Huber Mercury-Uranus square, which creates a small learning triangle with Venus. I shall reflect upon how that might manifest and post a comment asap tomorrow. ... But, what do you think might be the issue/symptom resulting from Mercury drawing on Uranus? The Saturn-Uranus is too wide for a square in Huber.
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Post by Ava on Jun 28, 2021 21:09:56 GMT
Thank you, t5. Mercury drawing on Uranus....... Uranus in Scorpio is exalted, but 4H Uranus is badly-placed, in my opinion. I don't know what my Uranus would want to do, optimally...I don't know what Mercury is sapping from it, except maybe I deprive myself of the freedom to make impulsive, spontaneous decisions. Uranus is throttled.
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Post by anela on Jun 29, 2021 0:08:24 GMT
Thank you, t5 . Mercury drawing on Uranus....... Uranus in Scorpio is exalted, but 4H Uranus is badly-placed, in my opinion. I don't know what my Uranus would want to do, optimally...I don't know what Mercury is sapping from it, except maybe I deprive myself of the freedom to make impulsive, spontaneous decisions. Uranus is throttled. I do this, too. Have done, most of my life, and it's one big regret that I have. I have it aspecting almost everything, and it's in my 12th, conjunct my ascendant. It rules my 4th.
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jun 29, 2021 6:08:14 GMT
Ava ... The downside of exaltation is that the planet feels obliged to always be on best behaviour. So, since Uranus is (astrologically intended to be) at its most disruptive in the 4th house of psychological foundations, exaltation may hinder rather than help if/when Mercury draws upon Uranus as an ally. In effect, Mercury needs Uranus to attract attention to its views/opinions by "rocking-the-boat" - but Uranus knows "too much of that" will have a negative impact upon the way you are seen by others. anela ... Exalted Uranus in Scorpio/12th opposes exalted Sun in Aries/6th. In your Huber Chart Aspect Circle ... do you see the Pluto-NN-Jupiter-Venus/Moon crucifixion figure, with the Uranus-Sun/Mercury spear driven through her side - and the 4th house Pisces Mars in the process of taking her down from the cross? ... (If yes, what might be the message/role of that Uranus-Sun/Mercury spear - and Mars?)
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Post by t5 on Jun 29, 2021 11:43:41 GMT
Ava ... Saturn-Uranus is too wide for a Huber square, but Mercury-Uranus is a valid Huber square that I missed - and which does indeed factor in here, as the Mercury-Venus-Uranus Small Learning Triangle. Your Natal Mercury-Venus-Uranus Small Learning Triangle1. The energy flow of Learning Triangles begins at the red-blue planet - then moves along the red line (to the red-green planet), the green line (to the green-blue planet) and the blue line (back to the red-blue planet). So Mercury -> Uranus -> Venus in your Small Learning Triangle ... an anti-clockwise flow, indicating that its lessons will be learned quickly. (Clockwise flows indicated lessons that take a long time to learn.) 2. The longest line in the triangle indicates the most important part of the learning process. ... Green = the pleasure obtained from learning something new : Red = the reason for learning, and the pleasure obtained from doing the work involved : Blue = the end result, and the satisfaction obtained from completing the learning. ... So, the reason for/work involved in the learning is the most important part of the process in your Mercury-Uranus-Venus triangle. 3. Small Learning Triangles are concerned with learning specific skills, relating to the houses in which the planets are located. ... Thus, your triangle is focused upon learning specific 4th, 5th and 6th house skills. 4. Those skills can be fed (via the Venus-Neptune conjunction) to Mars+Jupiter ... and used to enable Low-Point-Jupiter to be "heard"/not-ignored by others. What would happen if/when Uranus rocked-the-boat by asking your father questions about what you were reading?
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Post by Ava on Jun 29, 2021 13:35:23 GMT
Thanks again t5 , Your Natal Mercury-Venus-Uranus Small Learning Triangle1. The energy flow of Learning Triangles begins at the red-blue planet - then moves along the red line (to the red-green planet), the green line (to the green-blue planet) and the blue line (back to the red-blue planet). So Mercury -> Uranus -> Venus in your Small Learning Triangle ... an anti-clockwise flow, indicating that its lessons will be learned quickly. (Clockwise flows indicated lessons that take a long time to learn.) Part of my chart for reference if anyone is reading and likes visual aides (I do): 2. The longest line in the triangle indicates the most important part of the learning process. ... Green = the pleasure obtained from learning something new : Red = the reason for learning, and the pleasure obtained from doing the work involved : Blue = the end result, and the satisfaction obtained from completing the learning. ... So, the reason for/work involved in the learning is the most important part of the process in your Mercury-Uranus-Venus triangle. So there has to be some kind of reason to hold my Aqua Mercury square Uranus energy together, some guiding principles or inspiration and purpose.... Not sure I know what that is, except sheer instinct? Well the other day I was musing about how I've always seemed to carry contempt along with me, as if I'm in a survival realm and that's my sword. (Aqua Mercury thoughts, Scorpio Uranus weapon). But it's funny to me that whatever I had contempt for would always change, and I'd often come to embody whatever I hated before. I think I was trapped in that cycle for a while. Me saying, "Oh geez, I HATE that" might very well signal that I was about to DO that or BE that. But that might be the Pisces moon, or Venus-Neptune, or both. Seeking out a universal kind of experience. Not sure if this really fits, but it was the first thing that came to mind. 4. Those skills can be fed (via the Venus-Neptune conjunction) to Mars+Jupiter ... and used to enable Low-Point-Jupiter to be "heard"/not-ignored by others. I think this matches what I just wrote, also the Mars-Jupiter sextile always struck me as "fighter" potential, but for me...I was a really oddball kid....you know I think part of me felt like I'd already won. I'm going to re-read this in another mood and cringe that I wrote that, but it's more about feeling in touch with human potential on the grand scale and then feeling connected to it...so we don't HAVE to fight or compete. Not talking about athletics or fun competition, but competition for status, resources, and so on. Edit: my Mercury-Venus and Mars-Jupiter sextiles are related more directly if you consider draconic. I have: 16.01 Aries tropical Jupiter 16.35 Aries draconic Venus 16.01 Gemini tropical Mars 15.00 Gemini draconic Mercury Edit #2: In defense of that instinct I was trying to pinpoint above..."part of me felt like I'd already won"..I was relieved to find Lada Duncheva saying in this video @ the 1:50 mark, "They were already born with a sense of being victors; they go into battle expecting to win." That's it. Just some baseline comfort in my own skin, and then wishing others will also feel that same sense of being okay with themselves. I like the song "Let It Go" by James Bay, who also has the sextile. "Why don't you be you, and I'll be me?" It's the beauty of each person having the confidence to be an original, even though that can be daunting, to stand alone. What would happen if/when Uranus rocked-the-boat by asking your father questions about what you were reading? He was kind of up for anything. edit I do think the power of Scorpio Uranus might be something like having a storehouse of secret knowledge and then unleashing it without regard for the level of destruction it creates, it's like a full expenditure of the energy. The world might need these "portals" of release but it can be tough for the natives, I think. In all honesty I think my generation has still never had its full say.
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Post by t5 on Jul 1, 2021 7:16:32 GMT
Ava ... In The Uranus-Neptune Influence, Joy Michaud states that Uranus should be used "as a constant, ongoing confrontation between yourself and the world"; and that "Uranus gives the ability to observe and work with our thought processes - without becoming them - so that we develop more freewill than we have hitherto enjoyed". ... She then goes on to say "many of us think we have freewill by always getting our own way, or by being different, but often the complete opposite is true. We have to find, and tread, our own pathway in life - and this can only be done through an understanding and uniting of our human natures." So ... given that your father was 'up for anything' but 'spent most of his free time reading, almost never sharing what he read about' ... might your Uranus-93H-Moon have wanted/NEEDED provocative discussions between the two of you, BECAUSE your Jupiter-220H-Moon is inherently "not seen/heard" by others (since both planets are at the Low Point of their houses)? If yes, then perhaps we need to consider the Huber Family Model ... in which Sun = father : Saturn = mother : Moon = child/chart owner. [93H = 3H x 31H = the gift of being open to unconscious desires ... 220H = 11H x 20H = dogged persistence of (belief in) own views/ideas.] Might your subconscious mind have written this for YOU to see/read ... since, in effect, it is saying "we need to consider the roles of the parents in conditioning the (adult) views of the child/chart owner'. ... astrologicalpsychology.org/wp-content/uploads/Family_Model.pdf
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Post by Ava on Jul 1, 2021 15:42:20 GMT
Thank you t5 I don't know how to dig into this efficiently so I'm not just blabbing my life story all over, and to little effect. But I'm trying. From that Family Model the link above: Thoughts: - My sun sextile moon would represent a mostly-easygoing relationship with my father, then. True. - Sun in mutual reception with Saturn, and I did perceive my parents as a unified force, though my father was the more peaceful one....and as a Pisces moon, I was always seeking out peace. - Sun quindecile Saturn, things were not as great with them as the outward harmony might suggest. - My father and I both have 12H Saturn; he referred to his own mother as "a puff of smoke" and of course mine died when I was a young teenager, so I'm left with unanswered questions. Everything changed while I was away at college. Returning home, my easygoing father had somehow transformed into what I perceived as a dictator. Living at home for the transition phase between college and career was not an option. But that was also because my much-older sister had taken the place of my mother and drove me out. She was not my guardian but arrogated to herself that role, which my father somewhat allowed, trusting me to "just deal with it"....essentially heaping responsibilities and burdens onto me which shouldn't have been mine to carry. Her Saturn is conjunct my Jupiter, squaring her Cancer sun-moon conjunction. (In this scheme, does someone with sun conjunct moon over-identify with the father?? Well she did. They had a near exact Mars-Mars conjunction, adding to the problem.) Correct. More in my next reply...
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Post by Ava on Jul 1, 2021 16:10:04 GMT
So ... given that your father was 'up for anything' but 'spent most of his free time reading, almost never sharing what he read about' ... might your Uranus-93H-Moon have wanted/NEEDED provocative discussions between the two of you, BECAUSE your Jupiter-220H-Moon is inherently "not seen/heard" by others (since both planets are at the Low Point of their houses)? --- [93H = 3H x 31H = the gift of being open to unconscious desires ... 220H = 11H x 20H = dogged persistence of (belief in) own views/ideas.] Thank you for this, I didn't know I had moon-93H-Uranus/moon-220H-Jupiter. I don't know, once my sister took over as "mother" I found myself writing letters to my father which I never sent, usually railing against the injustice of the situation and his refusal to break ties and establish himself in his own right. I wanted him to sell the house and move fully into retirement mode, get his own apartment, prepare my sister for his own imminent death. He was, after all, almost 80. But then I had compassion for his lack of energy, his inertia, and his victimization by my sister. So I would never send the letters. My Saturn Return: He had a stroke and was hospitalized; he and my sister decided to not tell the rest of the family. A week went by before we finally heard about it. I was livid. So this is one of my clearer memories of subjecting my father to my fury. Did I "become" my long-dead mother with transiting Saturn conjunct my Saturn? My anger was reminiscent of hers. We did sort of make peace on his death bed, where for once he was completely open, answered my deeper questions, told me some disturbing things, but I'm adamant about wanting to know the truth, insofar as it can be verbalized, no matter what it costs me emotionally, so I'm grateful for that. As for moon-Uranus, word on the street was that he'd had serious mental issues when he was younger, which I only learned about after he died (he was THAT much of a vault). When I expressed my disbelief, my aunt said, "Why would he want you to know that? Isn't it better he kept it a secret?" I marvel that anyone can just pass off a life of dignity, grace, and sanity if they are supposedly crazy. Legend has it, my mother always refused to believe his (phenomenally wealthy and self-perceiving as powerful) family and their army of psychiatrists and fought them to the extent that everyone hated her. Confronted with these facts by my aunt, years after both died, I didn't know what to say or think. I couldn't believe anyone. Sometimes the only valid reaction seems to be overarching acceptance, compassion, and a kind of religious "Selah" -- it is whatever it is. Sorry for overtalking. Mercury's squaring my moon
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t5
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Post by t5 on Jul 2, 2021 7:30:17 GMT
Ava ... Yes. The child's growth/separation as an individual would not be completed until after the father's death. in your natal Huber Chart, the Moon cannot make any (direct or indirect) contact with Saturn ... and the aspect lines in the UFO create a barrier between the Moon and centre-circle (preventing it from being able to access the "source"/storehouse-of-soul-knowledge). The Sun is also unable to access either the source/centre-circle or Saturn, but is well-connected (directly + indirectly) to the Moon. However, Saturn IS able to access the source and (with considerable difficulty, due to the barriers/aspect-lines "in the way") it can access Mercury and Venus directly - plus their respective contacts indirectly (including your Mercury-Venus-Uranus Small Learning Triangle). So, since your Saturn/"mother" makes an almost exact trine to your father's natal Uranus (and can indirectly communicate with your own natal Uranus) ... your Small Learning Triangle might have been a mechanism for you to have explored - with your father - the facts/truth relating to "mother always refused to believe his (phenomenally wealthy and self-perceiving as powerful) family and their army of psychiatrists and fought them to the extent that everyone hated her". BUT ... if so ... note how the message/moral there might be 'don't give up too soon upon your need-to-know Uranus probing'. Low Point Jupiter-Moon may indeed not WANT to know ... but Uranus is aware of the NEED to know (about anything that might have conditioned our adult behaviour).
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