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Post by Electrode on Mar 24, 2019 17:46:43 GMT
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Post by Ava on Mar 25, 2019 1:20:07 GMT
Amazing article, thank you Electrode . "So if there’s a conceptual framework to understand the houses, we’re going to have to go a lot further back than the 1970’s." I never knew that, I thought the "Aries Alphabet" of houses was ancient. I thought Vedic astrology's house system was similar if not identical to Western astrology's, and I assumed it was super old. About the Thema Mundi, I wonder if that's sidereal or tropical? If tropical, I'm in luck, because the world's DSC is right on my sun. (It loves me?) Or wait...does DSC even mean the same thing whatsoever if it's associated with Capricorn? "Does this actually make sense for the Sun’s culmination to be associated with Capricorn?" I think so, because Cap is ambitious and trying to get to the highest point. Also the sun is at perihelion around mid-Cap (visibly larger than at any other time of year). I'll spend more time on the article, there is a great deal to learn here. Those are just some initial thoughts. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 3:00:47 GMT
I already knew about the zodiac starting at the luminaries theory and the symmetry makes sense. Nobody has really discusses the Aries Alphabet tho... I’ll need to research more.
He has some interesting points but I’m not completely sold yet. Also he thinks mercury is exalted in Virgo, not Aquarius. His interpretation of 12th house is a little bit limited, hence venus in 12th makes less sense when it comes to exaltation association with Pisces. I’m gonna hold off how I feel about this and see what more can he says about Scorpio.
On a theoretic level, one can debate for forever about which one makes sense. On a predictive level tho, 8th=death, shared finance etc has worked
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 3:20:02 GMT
I already mentioned about the alphabet in Electrodes other thread. Indian Astrology being heavily influenced by Hellenistic Astrology with the zodiac, elements,gender,ruling planets, and even some of their language for the aspects. It definitely wasn't the other way around. Even their nakshatras and their associations with deities seemed to have been influenced by the Babylonian Astrologers. I won't discuss this in detail here because I don't want to hijack the thread. back to the Alphabet I disagree with it because the houses,signs,and planets aren't similar. They may seem that way in Modern Astrology, but they are obviously different if you consider Classical Western Astrology and Indian Astrology. Take 12th house for instance, the Alphabet makes it seem like Neptune. The way the Classical Western Astrologers and indian Astrologers interpret the 12th house seems similar to Saturn. The 12th house in Indian Astrology seems very close to Ketu (South Lunar Node). I actually have Ketu in 12th house myself. Ketu in 12th seems to be highly emphasized Ketu and a highly emphasized 12th house. Jeff Green Evolutionary Astrology uses the Astrological Alphabet in a big way. You can easily see it in Maurice Fernandez's Neptune book which I have. I really don't care for it. He groups Moon in Pisces,Moon-Neptune,Neptune in Cancer, Neptune in 4th house and then interprets like it's the same thing. As a person with Moon in Tropical Pisces square Neptune in 4th house in Whole Sign House system (in 3rd house in all other house systems), I didn't care for that approach. I was a regular member of his forum, and I had disagreements with him. Untying the Knots of the Astrological Alphabet by Joseph Crane written September 2014 keplercollege.org/index.php/articles/news/item/515-twelve-letter-alphabet-by-craneAny ways....My preference is the Babylonian Zodiac and its names, and so I stay away from the Tropical Zodiac and their sign interpretations as well as houses. The modern tropical zodiac sign interpretations (especially for Aquarius,Pisces,and Scorpio with their being assigned to be ruled by Uranus,Neptune,and Pluto) seem "New Age" compared to how zodiac signs were interpreted by ancient Hellenistic Astrologers like Ptolemy and Valens. Before I switched from Tropical Zodiac to Sidereal Zodiac 3 years ago, I had dropped modern rulerships of Aquarius, Pisces,and Scorpio because they contradicted the classical rulership scheme put forth by Ptolemy. |
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 3:34:16 GMT
Philosophy of Sign Rulership by Deborah Houlding Few astrologers would dispute the relevance of sign rulership - we base much of our art on its strengthening influence and judge the condition of the planets according to their relationship with the signs. Ancient astrologers called the signs the 'houses of the planets', regarding them as planetary abodes. Although it is natural to assume that sign rulerships form the very essence of astrology, they have a limited history which, unlike planetary exaltations, cannot be traced to the Mesopotamian period. [1] We assume that their origin is classical, not only because of a lack of data from earlier times, but because the arrangement is based upon a planetary order which considers the length of their orbital periods (i.e., - Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Sarturn), first introduced by the Greeks. Curiously, planetary rulerships are absent from the Astronomica of Manilius - possibly due to a lacuna in the text, or the author's untimely death which left the work incomplete. [2] They are evident in the literary sources and charts of the 1st century BC, however, and were clearly an established part of astrology by that stage. [3] In Book I of his Tetrabiblos Ptolemy gives a clear explanation of the reasons for the arrangement of sign rulerships, showing how they are based upon a symmetrical pattern that extends from the luminaries. As in most ancient symbolism, the pivotal point in the underlying philosophy is the relationship of the Sun to the Earth. Hence the distribution of planets to signs begins at the cusp between Cancer and Leo where the power of the Sun is greatest (at least in the northern hemisphere where astrology evolved). Since the most productive of heat and warmth are Cancer and Leo, they assigned these to the greatest and most powerful heavenly bodies, the luminaries, as houses. Leo, which is masculine, to the Sun and Cancer, which is feminine, to the Moon. [4] The five visible planets are then distributed between the ten remaining signs in such a way that each has a 'day house' in a masculine sign and a 'nocturnal house' in a feminine sign. (It is, of course, fitting that the luminaries rule only one sign each since the Sun loses its power in a feminine sign, just as the Moon loses its potency in masculine signs.) Symetry of sign rulers The androgynous planet Mercury governs those signs - Gemini and Virgo - that adjoin the home of the masculine Sun and that of the feminine Moon, in keeping with its asexual nature. Ptolemy pointed out that Mercury is never further from the Sun than one sign in either direction so it is appropriate that the cusps of its signs preserve this relationship with the cusp of the sign of the Sun. Following Mercury is Venus, the fertility goddess, governing signs which Ptolemy described as 'extremely fertile': Taurus and Libra. Venus is a benefic planet; the friendly sextile between the beginning of Leo and the cusps of her signs again preserve the astronomical relationship between Venus and the Sun by keeping them within the distance of two signs. Next comes Mars, designated to Aries and Scorpio because, according to Ptolemy, they are agreeable to its destructive and inharmonious nature, and form a hostile square aspect to the 'houses' of the luminaries. Jupiter, the 'Greater Benefic', governs the signs that form a harmonious trine aspect to the luminaries - Sagittarius and Pisces. Saturn, the furthest visible planet from the Sun, is given rulership of the signs that are most distant from the Sun's 'home': Capricorn and Aquarius. These are the signs of the coldest, wintry weather, their unfriendly aspect to the signs of the luminaries befitting the destructive nature of the 'Greater Malefic'. The association of planets to places of their own gender (or sect) was far more relevant in traditional astrology than it is today and formed an important part of evaluating planetary strength. Al-Biruni tells us that a masculine planet was dignified when positioned in a masculine sign and weakened in a feminine one, the former being known as hayyiz (or hayz), meaning 'natural place' or 'preferred position', the latter being known as contention. [5] Although the planets have two signs each, they are nonetheless more potent when located in the sign which corresponds to their own gender and temperament. Saturn is a masculine planet and thus prefers the sign of Aquarius to Capricorn. For the same reason Jupiter prefers Sagittarius to Pisces, and Mars prefers Aries to Scorpio. Venus is feminine and so prefers Taurus to Libra, while Mercury, although common to both genders, prefers Virgo to Gemini because it most closely maintains its natural relationship with the Sun. Preferred rulerships of the planets Signs of detriment are simply those which oppose signs of rulership. The Sun, for example, rules Leo and is detrimented in the opposite sign, Aquarius. Clearly, if a planet in its own sign is in its strongest, safest position, it is at its most vulnerable in the furthest sign from this point. top Notes & References: 1] Neugebauer & Parker, Egyptian Astronomical texts Vol. III, p.203. Back to text 2] Even so, it is strange that Manilius gives so much other information on the signs, but never once mentions their rulers (and even offers an alternative scheme of guardianship which links the Sun with Gemini, the Moon with Sagittarius, Mercury with Cancer, Venus with Taurus, Mars with Scorpio and Jupiter with Leo). Astronomica, 2.433 (Loeb p.117.) See also Intro. xlvi. Back to text 3] This can be seen from the early classical charts published in Neugebauer's Greek Horoscopes. Back to text 4] Tetrabiblos, 1.17 'Of the Houses of the Several Planets'; (Loeb p.79) Back to text 5] The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, (written 1029, translated 1934 by R. Ramsay Wright) ch. 496 & 497, p.308. Back to text www.skyscript.co.uk/rulership.html |
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 3:36:18 GMT
Ptolemy's Table of Essential Dignity Explained by Deborah Houlding The first column of the table indicates the signs of the zodiac. The second column shows the traditional rulers of the signs. It is headed 'house' because ancient terminology referred to the signs that the planets ruled as being their natural 'houses' or 'homes'. Apart from the Sun and Moon, each of the planets rules one sign by diurnal expression (D) and one by nocturnal expression (N). Hence Mars rules both Aries and Scorpio, but in Aries, its diurnal rulership, its energies are expressed more openly and directly; in Scorpio (its nocturnal rulership), its energies are more introverted and unconsciously driven. Diurnal simply means 'of the nature of the day'; nocturnal, 'of the nature of the night'. The terms 'diurnal and nocturnal' are synonymous with 'masculine and feminine', 'yin and yang', 'extrovert and introvert'. Diurnal energy usually gives a more spontaneous reaction where inner drives are consciously expressed and clearly apparent. Nocturnal energy is usually more reflective and operates at a deeper level of consciousness. In considering the traditional scheme, note from the illustration at the top of the page how the planetary rulerships fan out in a symmetrical pattern from the union of the Sun and Moon. The third column shows where each of the planets are exalted. The specific degree of exaltation is included - these degrees are particularly notable although the dignity of exaltation is generally applied to the whole of the sign. Hence Mars is dignified at any position in Capricorn, the sign of its exaltation, but the dignity will be especially apparent in the 28th degree. The traditional exaltations of the nodes are included although I have never really seen these put to good use in judgements. The fourth column shows the planetary rulership of the triplicities. You will see that the pattern repeats for the fire triplicity - Aries, Leo and Sagittarius; the earth triplicity - Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn; the air triplicity - Gemini, Libra and Aquarius; and the water triplicity - Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. In triplicity rulerships the planetary rulers change according to whether the chart is a daytime chart, (which features the Sun above the horizon), or a night-time chart, (where the sun has set). The 'D' and 'N' at the top of the column indicate the rulers by day and night. So if the chart is cast for noon then Saturn acts as the triplicity ruler of all the air signs; at midnight Mercury would be used instead. The fifth column shows the degrees where rulership by term transfers. That is, Jupiter rules the first six degree of Aries, from 0°00' - 5°59'; Venus rules from 6°00' - 13°59 Aries. Notice that the Sun and Moon do not rule any of the terms. Also that the malefic planets, Mars and Saturn rule the final terms of every sign (this principle is fixed from 27 degrees to the end of the sign). The malefics fo not rule any of the middle terms (from 6 degrees - 19 degrees), which are all held by Mercury, Venus or Jupiter. The sixth column shows the degrees where rulership by face transfers. That is, Mars rules the first ten degree of Aries, from 0°00' - 9°59'; the Sun rules rules from 10°00' - 19°59 Aries. Notice how the order of planetary rulership over the faces winds across the column in descending order of their proximity to earth; that is - Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. As you read their order down the column, you find the pattern that matches the order of the days of the week - Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn: Sun - Sunday Moon - Monday Mars - Tuesday (equivalent Scandinavian god Tyr - O.E.: Tiw) Mercury - Wednesday(equivalent Scandinavian god Odin - O.E.: Woden) Jupiter - Thursday (equivalent Scandinavian god Thor) Venus - Friday (equivalent Scandinavian god Frigg) Saturn - Saturday The seventh column shows the signs where the planets experience detriment. These are the signs opposite the ones they rule, so apart from the Sun and Moon, each planet has two signs of detriment just as they have two signs of rulership. The eighth column shows the signs where the planets experience fall. These are opposite the signs of exaltation, so each planet has only one sign of fall, just as they have only one sign of exaltation. Although the debility is applied throughout the sign, the specific degrees mentioned in the list of exaltations carry extra significance, so the 28th degree of Cancer is particularly notable as a degree of debility for Mars, being the sign and degree of its fall. The following sections in this article explain the use of dignities, debilities and reception in chart interpretation. Before moving on, try the exercise below to make sure that you understand how to take dignities and rulerships from Ptolemy's table. Test your ability to read the table correctly If you want to check that you can read this table correctly, try the following exercise - a link to the answers is given below. 1) In a day-time chart, Saturn is placed at 15°35' Taurus. List the planets that rule Saturn's position by sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and face. Does Saturn have any essential dignity in this position? 2) In a night-time chart, the Moon is placed at 19°45' Cancer. List the planets that rule the Moon's position by sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and face. Does the Moon have any essential dignity in this position? 3) In which three signs is Venus essentially debilitated? 4) In a night-time chart Mercury is at 26°12 Aries. List the planets that rule Mercury's position by sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and face. Does Mercury have any essential dignity in this position? www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html |
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 6:09:57 GMT
As you know, I am very passionate about Pluto's fellow transneptunian dwarf planet/candidates in Astrology.
One of the reasons why I don't believe Pluto should rule Scorpio nor any sign for that matter is because it's one of many transneptunian objects. There are transneptunian objects that have been discovered that are large as Pluto like Eris,Makemake,and Haumea. If Pluto rules Scorpio, then how come Eris, Makemake, and Haumea can't have signs to rule. What about other transeptunian dwarf planet/candidates like Sedna,Orcus,Quaoar,and others?
Understanding about the true nature of Pluto, it makes no sense for me to consider it a ruler of Scorpio nor any other sign for that matter. There are some astrologers that advocated for Pluto to rule Aries. There was a plan of assigning Pluto to rule the sign, Aries before Pluto was ultimately given the rulership of Scorpio.
It was based on this logic:
It made sense for Uranus to be assigned rulership of Aquarius because Saturn was assigned rulership of Capricorn and Saturn is the planet before Uranus and Capricorn is the sign before Aquarius.
I made sense for Neptune to be assigned rulership of Pisces because Uranus was assigned rulership of Aquarius and Uranus is the planet before Neptune and Aquarius is the sign before Pisces
and so it made sense for Pluto to be assigned rulership of Aries because Neptune was assigned rulership of Pisces and Neptune is the planet before Pluto and Pisces is the sign before Aries (as zodiac ends with Pisces and goes back to Aries again for the zodiac has no actual end)
but it ultimately didn't turn out that way, Pluto was assigned rulership of Scorpio which contradicted the scheme that was used to assign rulership of Uranus and Neptune to Aquarius and Pisces respectively.
There are people that believe Chiron should rule Virgo. Barbara Hand Clow was definitely was an advocate of that.
This was before Chiron was unique in that it was the only minor planet that orbited beyond Jupiter. It was thought that Chiron came from outside our solar system. It turns out that Chiron is one of many comet/asteroid hybrid objects orbiting beyond Jupiter known as centaurs.
1992 was the year that both the 2nd centaur Pholus and 2nd transneptunian object QB1 were discovered. QB1 was the first classicial kuiper belt object discovered. All classical kuiper objects are classed as cubewanos (name based off of Q1.
The Kuiper Belt that was hypothesized by Gerald Kuiper was discovered. Ever since those discoveres, many centaurs and transneptunian objects have been discovered. We now realize that the solar system goes way far beyond Pluto that it was previously known.
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Post by Ava on Mar 25, 2019 11:02:19 GMT
Great information, glaucus, thank you. "The association of planets to places of their own gender (or sect) was far more relevant in traditional astrology than it is today and formed an important part of evaluating planetary strength. Al-Biruni tells us that a masculine planet was dignified when positioned in a masculine sign and weakened in a feminine one, the former being known as hayyiz (or hayz), meaning 'natural place' or 'preferred position', the latter being known as contention. [5] Although the planets have two signs each, they are nonetheless more potent when located in the sign which corresponds to their own gender and temperament. Saturn is a masculine planet and thus prefers the sign of Aquarius to Capricorn. For the same reason Jupiter prefers Sagittarius to Pisces, and Mars prefers Aries to Scorpio. Venus is feminine and so prefers Taurus to Libra, while Mercury, although common to both genders, prefers Virgo to Gemini because it most closely maintains its natural relationship with the Sun." I love that. Though it does mark out half the zodiac as ruled by a "contentious" ruler. With the rulerships in modern astrology, only one quarter of the signs have a malefic ruler. It's more positive overall in that sense. Which I like. |
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Post by Ava on Mar 25, 2019 11:17:54 GMT
Much as I love some of the content of the article, I'm a little exasperated by the conflicting charts and lack of clarity about certain particulars. 1. So what exactly are the house rulerships the author is proposing? He refers to the Thema Mundi but I don't know what to make of conflicting charts like this:   Which one is it? 2. What do I make of the emphasis on 15° here?  I guess this means a planet between 15° Cancer and 15° Leo is in the first house, but which planet rules that house? |
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 14:13:22 GMT
There was a time that I thought Ceres should rule Virgo and 6th house. I remember posting about it back 23 years ago, and I spent hours looking for it. I found my old post at alt.astrology.moderated.
I posted back in August 16, 2006. It was when Ceres was considered for planethood but got denied along with Eris. Of course, Pluto got downgraded. It all led to Ceres,Pluto,and Eris being astronomical equals as dwarf planets. Of course, I disagree with all of this now. I chuckle because I see how much I have changed since then.
Ceres being classifed as a planet could help Astrology. I see Ceres as like a 2nd Moon because it is the asteroid of nurturing. Because of that,I always believed that it was another indicator for mother just like Saturn is another indicator for father in Western Astrology. I believe that it should rule Virgo/6th house. Ceres relates to eating
and food which is important for health. Without eating food,we would have serious health problems. Virgo/6th house relate to health. Virgo/6th house relate to service and work.I feel that nurturing is a kind of service. It's a way of helping yourself or others. Helping and work are often connected. Therefore, I feel that Virgo and Ceres share service in common. Virgo is an earth sign,and Ceres an earth mother. Ceres was Roman goddess of the harvest. According to Roman Mythology,without her things didn't grow and so Earth suffered.
These are the reasons that I feel Ceres should rule Virgo. I have Virgo Ascendant,and I feel that Ceres would fit as the ruler of my chart. I never believed that Chiron ruled Virgo nor was my chart ruler. I definitely feel that if Astrologers accept Ceres as a planet like astronomers might do,then it's possible that Ceres will get the respect
that it lacked from astrologers who focused more on the minor planet,Chiron.
Of course,we have another female archetype to add to the list of Planets. I welcome Ceres with a warm hug just like the nurturer she is.
The aforementioned stuff when I was very passionate about Tropical Zodiac Astrology and excited about the idea that Ceres and Pluto would be finally equals in Astronomy. I thought it was pretty sad that Chiron got a lot more respect than Ceres in Astrology even though it's one 1/3 the size of Ceres.
After reading Mesopotamian Star-lore, I learned that Ab-sin 'The Furrow' was associated with Shala, the Goddess of Grain and Compassion. As a Mesopotamian Astrologer, I'd focus on Sidereal Virgo as Ab-sin having themes,traits in connection to Shala. I don't see it as anything to do with planet, Mercury which was associated with the Nabu, the Babylonian God of literacy, the rational arts, scribes and wisdom. Sumerians associated with the planet, Mercury with Enki, the God of the Waters,Wisdom,Magic,Arts. It was believed that Mercury brought rain just like Ea/Enki did. Gu-la 'Great One' was associated with Ea/Enki and rain. Mercury would have been strongly placed in both Ab-sin and Gu-la for obvious reasons. On the Babylonian star-map, Mercury was placed between the figures of Shala and the Raven.
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 16:03:15 GMT
I accidentally some stuff that was intended for IAU Constellation thread in the wrong thread, and I deleted it
sorry about that
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Post by glaucus on Mar 25, 2019 16:13:31 GMT
I accidentally some stuff that was intended for IAU Constellation thread in the wrong thread, and I deleted it
sorry about that
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