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Post by Ava on Mar 10, 2019 21:46:44 GMT
Ava thank you for your input. Yes, I`ve read that too, about karmic relationships, but actually the same thing about the fatedness, compulsion, inevitable draw etc. I have read in relation to soulmates and twinflames as well. At some point it just all seems arbitrary, depending which source you read. Thanks for your input, too. From what I understand, twin flame relationships present themselves differently, because they focus on uncanny similarities and/or mind-sharing, and there isn't the same disinterest at the end. Karma is neutral as you said, but tends to have a negative connotation. So, speaking for myself, I would only use it in a negative way. "I mean just look at the synastry above, if the sidereal is about karma, then this must be a very karmic lineup." True Comparing those two relationships using those lists of conjunctions, it appears the second relationship (unhealthy) is heavier with the malefics: sun/Saturn, sun/Pluto, NN/Pluto, while the first looks gentler overall.
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Post by glaucus on Mar 10, 2019 22:00:04 GMT
Lumina,
your Tropical Moon in 17 Aquarius is square my tropical Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio
Your Tropical Mars in 5 Sagittarius aspects my tropical t-square of Moon in 3'11 Pisces, Saturn in 5'08 Gemini, and Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius
Your Tropical Jupiter in 11 Pisces is oppose/conjunct my Asc/Desc in 13'26 Virgo/Pisces and square my MC/IC in 11'14 Gemini/Sagittarius
Your Tropical Neptune in 9 Sagittarius is conjunct my Tropical Jupiter
Your Tropical Pluto in 6 Libra is trine my Tropical Saturn
Your Tropical Lunar Nodes in 10 Sagittarius/Gemini is oppose my Tropical MC/IC
Your Tropical Asc/Desc in 7 Sagittarius/Gemini aspect my Tropical Moon,Jupiter,Saturn T-Square
Your Tropical MC/IC in 5 Libra/Aries trine/sextile my Tropical Saturn
Your Tropical Ceres square my Tropical Jupiter and Tropical MC/IC
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Post by lumina on Mar 10, 2019 22:08:44 GMT
Karma is neutral as you said, but tends to have a negative connotation. Well see that is where I start to question it all. Who sais it has a negative connotation? And if a thousand websites copy that stuff about negative implications, does it make it right? Who sais twinflames are about mindsharing any more than karmamates`? It really is all assumptions, on all sides, and that just isn`t enough for me to base any kind of analysis on. And if so, I would read Karma as neutral per se, and have a closer look at what is being aspected. Just as you said, the first one is gentler and more contstructive and enthusiastic while the second relationship is coming with that heavy feel of Pluto, Neptune, Saturn all through it, and that matched the people`s experience.
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Post by lumina on Mar 10, 2019 22:11:03 GMT
glaucus Yes, definitely some interesting and complex interconnections.
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Post by Ava on Mar 11, 2019 15:00:38 GMT
Well see that is where I start to question it all. Who sais it has a negative connotation? That's how I've seen it being used on the internet. Maybe that's just my own narrow vision. And if a thousand websites copy that stuff about negative implications, does it make it right? Sort of? That's how language evolves. The word gay used to just mean happy. Words change meaning all the time. Who sais twinflames are about mindsharing any more than karmamates`? Well, I mean, if we challenge all categorization, there's nothing left. lol I think some distinction is helpful, when differentiating between relationships that we consider positive, versus the ones we consider negative, though I suppose not everyone feels things in black in white like that, and not everyone bothers much with bad relationships. I've known people who leave those fast, so they have no experience with feeling stuck, and everything that comes along with that. But a lot of my friends have prior experience with negative relationships, and a lot of marriages that I've witnessed are overall stressful, to the extent that one party wants to leave, except they haven't the financial means of doing so, plus there are children involved. What is the name for that, in the grand scheme of things, from a spiritual vantage point? It really is all assumptions, on all sides, and that just isn`t enough for me to base any kind of analysis on. To me, it's just semantics and striving to name and substantiate different phenomena. I wouldn't choose the word "karmic" for my relationship with H, because there is the possibility of being misunderstood and mistaken as complaining about it. I have complained about it, but only on my specific terms, taking care to communicate the difference between topical problems and a more enduring sense of connection and goodwill. I've already complained about the phrase "twin flames" (it's quite confusing, implying incest hell). Yet I have explored usage of that term, because it's there, and it just felt natural to explore it at first, though as the years go by, it seems to get more dogmatic and ridiculous (hoping I don't offend anyone with that; hopefully everyone has seen the extremes I'm alluding to). And if so, I would read Karma as neutral per se, and have a closer look at what is being aspected. Just as you said, the first one is gentler and more contstructive and enthusiastic while the second relationship is coming with that heavy feel of Pluto, Neptune, Saturn all through it, and that matched the people`s experience. I don't blame you whatsoever for your preference there. I'm just saying, if people use that shorthand with me -- "karmic relationship" -- then I begin with the assumption that this was negative for them. Of course I'm open to hearing details and learning how they conceive of that phrase.
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Post by lumina on Mar 11, 2019 15:22:11 GMT
Ava you are of course absolutely right. Most people, using the term "karmic relationship" have the negative connotation in mind. I am just doubting the truth of it. Especially if we say that one astrological system/ zodiac is indicative of karmic relationship, that would be like saying: if there are connections between sidereal and tropical, then the relationship would be bad or destructive or supposed to end or whatever. And I don´t think that is right. And just because a thousand people say "Karma is bad", doesn`t make it right. It`s more than a word, there is a whole concept and meaning tied to that. Of course we can look for other words to use for that, but well a table is a table, no matter how I call it. It`s a little difficult to explain in a language that is not my native language, what I mean is the "idea/ concept" of what a table is, is actually indepdenent from calling it table or chair or whatever. It will always be that thing, with some legs and a surface, you can put stuff on. Of course we do not need to call it a table, we could call it with a different name. Of course this is all semantics, but in the end that is what language comes down to. We just have our conventions, but in some respects I doubt the truth of the convention, especially if we are talking about spiritual concepts, because there is just no real aggreement/ convention about them. Soulmates, twinflames, karmic mates - so many different "definitions" of those, and everyone thinks they got it right. So yes, I do question categorization like this. And honestly? It doesn`t matter how we call it. What matters is the quality of a relationship for example, and this cannot be summarized by a title like karmic, or soulmate or whatever. if we want to know what a relationship is about, there is no other way but ask for a description of how both people feel about and in it and how they act towards each other and as a couple, and even that is of course subjective. But yes, I understand the appeal of categories, of course I do. I just think they are a starting point of exploration, not the end/ judgement.
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Post by Ava on Mar 11, 2019 15:33:36 GMT
What matters is the quality of a relationship for example, and this cannot be summarized by a title like karmic, or soulmate or whatever. True but then I also think there are certain relationships that stand out so far, and are so extraordinary, that we have to reach for terms that ordinarily we might not use. " This is different" is okay, but what else does the person feel? Love lexicon Karmic: They feel they've known each other before they met, it was meant to be Soulmate: Deep soul bond, it's exclusively those two Karmic soulmate: mix those together Twin Flame: So similar they repel each other, so their drama is all cat and mouse, capture and release, until finally, in only a tiny number of cases, they get together and heal the entire world because that's...apparently the Master Plan...to have the world crumble and be healed again through these special couples. People want to be twins even though twins typically warn that nothing in life is emotionally as painful as that... People are strange.
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Post by Ava on Mar 11, 2019 15:36:10 GMT
I've heard that most stars are actually binaries and people are made of stardust, so maybe that's at the root of people's desire to be twins.
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Post by lumina on Mar 11, 2019 16:46:12 GMT
Ava "True but then I also think there are certain relationships that stand out so far, and are so extraordinary, that we have to reach for terms that ordinarily we might not use. "This is different" is okay, but what else does the person feel? " Yes, I agree. I like your love lexicon for the most part, however "Twin Flame: So similar they repel each other, so their drama is all cat and mouse, capture and release, until finally, in only a tiny number of cases, they get together and heal the entire world because that's...apparently the Master Plan...to have the world crumble and be healed again through these special couples. " Actually that is ONE "definition" of twinflames you stumble across on the net, but by far not the only. Some others conclude that twin flames are mostly complimentary (instead of just being mirrors to each other), well in my understanding having a similiar core, but expressing it differently, complementary, and that "mission thing", sorry it always makes me roll my eyes. It`s a new age "invention/ addition", I mean I find it a cool thing to heal the world and do good things and all, but actually the core of the twinflame myth stems from Plato`s "Symposium". And all that has been said there is that they (human creatures) had one been "one" (meaning, one body btw) And then the gods cut them into half and sent a storm so the "halves" (two-legged-creatures now) were being blown away from each other. And our navel is actually where they had been most closely linked and cut (like the umbilicial cord), hmm never thought about it but, of course that is the navel chakra. Hmm maybe there is a reason that chakra is called "sacral", though it seems like the navel actually is midway bewteen the sacral chakra and the solar plexus chakra. Anyway, so we were sown together at the navel, and put at different places in the world. And because there is a memory stored in us of the "union" we once knew (mostly a balance of masculine and feminine, Yin and Yang), we`ve got that yearning for finding the other half again, and become that complete fourlegged creature again, that is how sex came into the world. And why did the Gods do that to us? Well as myth sais the fourlegged, complete creatures became to powerful and aware of their power and questioning the gods, so their power had to be diminished, and they had to be distracted (the distraction being to search each other again). But that is really all this myth is about. The mission, if there is any, is to find each other, and recreate that union and balance. There is nothing else said in the original myth. Everything else is an addition from the last decades really. Though I am all for charity work of course. lol "People want to be twins even though twins typically warn that nothing in life is emotionally as painful as that... " aCcording to the original history myth people ARE twinflames and the more they are aware of that the more they are aware of the separation and that is the pain it brings. But generally everyone is part of a twinflame couple. And yes I know there are websites that state that there are only a few twinflames, but first of all that is not true in terms of the source-story. And secondly I suspect that is a way to inflate some people`s Ego. But anyway what I really wanted to say is probably, that if we define karmic relationships at those that have that bad tint (whatever that means),t hen the sidereal synastry cannot be indicative of karmic relationship, (as a default). It`s not the zodiac itself that shows how challenging or smooth a relation is, but the aspect within that zodiac. The sidereal might have a connection to the karmic, but it will depend on the aspects, what the experience will be like.
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Mar 31, 2019 13:50:29 GMT
I'm not sure what tropical to sidereal synastry means, and where the theme of 'karmic completion' came about. Because when you look at sidereal by itself, we're talking about this life. The same incarnation. I find it hard to take fatalistic interpretations seriously... "destined for a bitter completion" or whatever it was. (In other words, I'm afraid I might take them too seriously and unintentionally manifest negativity. So, I try to stay away). In my own natal chart, the tropical-sidereal overlap is not much. Well, except for these:
Sidereal Pluto at 24° Libra conjunct my tropical Sun. Sidereal Chiron at 13° Cancer conjunct tropical South Node. (Ha, I can get behind this particular karmic completion. Make it stop already). ^Those are exact. This one's a bit wider (3°): Sidereal MC conjunct tropical Mercury. Well, I do use my mercury a lot in my job. Overall, though... I'm not really sure what those mean. Are there any resources that have specific interpretations? Or does anyone here have specific interpretations?
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Mar 31, 2019 14:25:52 GMT
And all that has been said there is that they (human creatures) had one been "one" (meaning, one body btw) And then the gods cut them into half and sent a storm so the "halves" (two-legged-creatures now) were being blown away from each other. And our navel is actually where they had been most closely linked and cut (like the umbilicial cord), hmm never thought about it but, of course that is the navel chakra. Hmm maybe there is a reason that chakra is called "sacral", though it seems like the navel actually is midway bewteen the sacral chakra and the solar plexus chakra. Anyway, so we were sown together at the navel, and put at different places in the world. And because there is a memory stored in us of the "union" we once knew (mostly a balance of masculine and feminine, Yin and Yang), we`ve got that yearning for finding the other half again, and become that complete fourlegged creature again, that is how sex came into the world. And why did the Gods do that to us? Well as myth sais the fourlegged, complete creatures became to powerful and aware of their power and questioning the gods, so their power had to be diminished, and they had to be distracted (the distraction being to search each other again). But that is really all this myth is about. The mission, if there is any, is to find each other, and recreate that union and balance. There is nothing else said in the original myth. Everything else is an addition from the last decades really. Right! I only know this thanks to Paulo Coelho. aCcording to the original history myth people ARE twinflames and the more they are aware of that the more they are aware of the separation and that is the pain it brings. But generally everyone is part of a twinflame couple. And yes I know there are websites that state that there are only a few twinflames, but first of all that is not true in terms of the source-story. And secondly I suspect that is a way to inflate some people`s Ego. Yes, I think if it exists, it's true for everybody. Don't get why there'd have to a "chosen few". Like, really, what's the point? Although I still prefer the term 'soulmate'... 'Twinflame' sounds vaguely incestuous. Lol. Or maybe it's just that I find the idea of complementary yin-yang more romantic than that of an absolute 'sameness'. (I don't mean unity, btw. Being united as one, or becoming one, is something I believe in. But it's a different concept, not 'sameness'). It's a lot more complicated than that, obviously. I don't know what the official definitions are, so don't take my opinion too seriously.
However, I'll always root for loving a real person for who they are, over any story we tell ourselves. I also see this whole concept as a way to evade the work of building & keeping a relationship. Even if we're with someone who is perfectly compatible in every way (soulmate/twinflame/whatever we call it), we can't jump right to the finish line and live in eternal bliss.
I don't know how much of the pain is something we've created for ourselves by being rigid and expecting a fairy tale. Not seeing the abundance of love & beauty right under our noses. Imperfection is beauty. 💓
Re: Karmic relationships... I dunno, I've always thought *every* relationship (romantic or not) is karmic. In the sense that we're either continuing karma or creating new karma by interacting with each other. It goes on and on. By itself, karma is neither positive nor negative - it simply is. I see it as being intertwined with time and lessons, that's all. Karma is what keeps you involved, enrolled in the school of life. If you file incompletes, you have to do them next semester. It is what you make of it. It's not all doom & gloom - we get plenty of chances to change and adapt, grow from the past...
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Post by lumina on Mar 31, 2019 14:42:11 GMT
However, I'll always root for loving a real person for who they are, over any story we tell ourselves. I also see this whole concept as a way to evade the work of building & keeping a relationship. Even if we're with someone who is perfectly compatible in every way (soulmate/twinflame/whatever we call it), we can't jump right to the finish line and live in eternal bliss.
I don't know how much of the pain is something we've created for ourselves by being rigid and expecting a fairy tale. Not seeing the abundance of love & beauty right under our noses. Imperfection is beauty. 💓
Re: Karmic relationships... I dunno, I've always thought *every* relationship (romantic or not) is karmic. In the sense that we're either continuing karma or creating new karma by interacting with each other. It goes on and on. By itself, karma is neither positive nor negative - it simply is. I see it as being intertwined with time and lessons, that's all. Karma is what keeps you involved, enrolled in the school of life. If you file incompletes, you have to do them next semester. It is what you make of it. It's not all doom & gloom - we get plenty of chances to change and adapt, grow from the past... I totally agree with this.
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Post by 12YearsABlob on Mar 31, 2019 15:00:15 GMT
I should add that I only skimmed the rest of the thread (other than lumina's post). So, I might be missing some context but I thought I'd post anyway... Mars has entered Gemini, pretty close to my IC right now, so... Feeling chatty.
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