Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac Comparison - Karmic Completion

[glaucus]

In his book,  Astrology A Language of Life: Volume IV- Relationship Analysis ,
Robert P. Blaschke discussed some of his unique relationship analysis methods

page 96:

he wrote:

In Chapter Four, I wrote about past life connections and how these can be seen through contacts to the IC, South Node or Vertex. Two souls who meet up again in this lifetime and enter into a relationship, may then find themselves going through a parting of the ways and a painful completion of and the ending of karma between them. Can this completed karma be see in the astrology charts? Yes, and I have observed that the Sidereal Zodiac charts are often found to have exact synastric constructions with the other's Tropical chart when these karmic completions occur.

The Sidereal Zodiac is used primarily by Vedic and Hindu astrologers. Yet, even in the West, there has been a school of astrological thought promulgating the use of this Zodiac since the end of WWII. A practical problem is the perception by those outside of astrology that the one system appears to contradict the other. The Tropical Zodiac commences from the vernal equinox, and thus is a point in time, while the Sidereal Zodiac is measured from the star Spica (Virgo 30), or from Aldebaran and Antares (Taurus 15-Scorpio 15), which are points in space. It is my belief that karma can manifest only when incarnation into time and space occurs. Planetary conjunctions between the zodiacs between these two Zodiacs show this phenomenon.

Soul Level                   Zodiac                  Origin                        Plane of Reality
1                                Heliocentric            Solar                          Christ Consciousness
2                                Sidereal                 Space                         Completion of Karma
3                                Tropical                  Draconic                     Present Incarnation
4                                Draconic                 Lunar                         Ongoing Soul Contract 


This dual-Zodiac mechanism is similar to the relationship betweem the Draconic and Tropical Zodiacs. The difference is that the Sidereal-Tropical relationship is one of completion, whereas the relationship of the Draconic to Tropical Zodiacs symbolizes contracts of ongoing soul connection, such as family members reuniting again from lifetime to lifetime. 


I found what he wrote very interesting.  I have seen Astrologers look at Draconic-Tropical Zodiac conjunctions,oppositions in synastry and in natal charts.  I don't see why astrologers cannot look at conjunctions in Sidereal-Tropical Zodiac comparisons.
Robert Blaschke did. He only mentioned them in synastry.   I believed that they can be used in natal when look at an individual's relationship with self.  Some Astrologers have been using that approach with Draconic-Tropical Zodiac comparisons.
I looked at only conjunctions.
BTW..I believe that oppositions work with Draconic-Tropical Zodiac if you consider that the Draconic Zodiac is based on North Lunar Node as 0'00 Aries.  Then South Lunar Node is 0'00 Libra.  If you reverse the Draconic Zodiac, then the oppositions from Draconic to Tropical Zodiac are conjunctions.

for example:
in my astrology nativity

Tropical Moon in 3'11 Pisces
Draconic Sumeria in 3'48 Virgo

I have Moon oppose Sumeria-Drakonia conjunction in the Draconic-Tropical Zodiac comparison 
In a reversed Draconic based on starting the zodiac with the South Lunar Node, it would be a conjunction between the Draconic and Tropical. 

Moon oppose Draconic Sumeria may indicate a pastlife involving being a Sumerian, but it can also be my ancestry.
Blashke believed that Draconic shows the family or anchestral ties.

The Draconic has lunar symbolism and the Moon also indicates our ancestry.

I am around 1/8 Ashkenazi Jewish for my maternal grandmother's mother was an Ashkenazi Jew.
It was said that Abraham was born in Ur. Some say that Ur is in Sumer. It's believed that the Hebrews had their roots in Mesopotamia.

I do have a a Mesopotamia-DNA-Imum Coeli conjunction.


Tameem Saied said that Robert Blaschke was a foremost authority on integrating Draco, Sidereal, Heliocentric and Tropical Charts.

Tameem's own experience shows that the Tropical rules objective psychological thinking/character; Sidereal rules the Physical Body and Predictive Timing; Heliocentric affects our Higher Level thinking [subtly] and Draconic Chart rules "unconscious" behaviour.
He believes that this integration is the key to astrological salvation, which is the ability to totally rise above your chart and live a life based on the positive side Law of Attraction and a deep connection to our Higher Self.



I found some interesting things in my Sidereal-Tropical comparison
I included nodes of minor planets 
I included heliocentric nodes, but I didn't consider the heliocentric symbolism that Robert Blaschke explained. 
I was looking at them as collective energy lines  (looking at them as mathematical lines, they can be taken as being geocentric) 
Robert Blaschke was actually a regular user of heliocentric planetary nodes.

Tr - Tropical
Sid - Sidereal



I checked mine.

I included nodes of minor planets





Sid Sun in 10'59 Libra

conj Tr Aneas in 10'16 Libra - mythical ancestor of the Romans and survivor of Trojan War



Sid Moon in 8'49 Aquarius

conj Tr Aphrodite in 9'46 Aquarius

conj Tr Euterpe in 9'18 Aquarius - Muse of Lyric Poetry

conj Tr Angelica in 9'07 Aquarius



Sid Mercury in 23'59 Libra

conj Tr Arcturus in 23'50 Libra - Alpha star of Bootes

conj Tr Spica in 23'26 Libra - Alpha star of Virgo



Sid Asc/Desc in 19'05 Leo

conj/oppose Tr Dynamene in 19'15 Leo - a Nereid , her name, a participle, means "she who can, the capable one."

conj/oppose Tr Semiramis in 18'08 Leo

opp/Conj Tr Lameia in 19'04 Aquarius



Sid Mars in 1'32 Aquarius

conj Tr Philosophia in 1'32 Aquarius

conj Tr Sophrosyne in 1'41 Aquarius - the quality of restraint displayed by those who are gracious, thoughtful, humble-- moderate in all things.

conj Tr Olympia in 1'29 Aquarius

conj Tr Altair in 1'22 Aquarius - Alpha star of Aquila

conj Tr Perseverantia in 0'52 Aquarius



Sid Jupiter in 13'56 Scorpio

conj Tr Iris in 13'15 Scorpio - Goddess of the Rainbow, Fertility, Colors, the Sea, Heraldry, the Sky, Truth, and Oaths in Greek mythology



Sid Saturn in 10'46 Taurus R

conj Tr Thia in 10'40 Taurus - Titan Goddess of Light in Greek mythology - One of the 3 Moirae (Fates); measures the thread of life and chooses a person's destiny



Sid Uranus in 20'56 Virgo



Sid Neptune in 7'27 Scorpio

conj Tr Lachesis in 8'28 Scorpio



Sid MC/IC in 16'52 Taurus/Scorpio



Sid Lunar Nodes in 16'08 Capricorn/Cancer

conj Tr Persephone in 16'13 Capricorn

conj Tr Frostia in 17'01 Capricorn - frosty,cold





Sun in 5'20

conj Sid Geo NN Selqet in 5'34 Scorpio - Scorpion Goddess in Egyptian mythology

conj Sid Minerva in 5'21 Scorpio

conj Sid Angelina in 4'21 Scorpio



tr Moon in 3'11 Pisces

conj Sid Kypria in 3'07 Pisces R - lost epic poem of ancient Greek literature, which has been attributed to Stasinus and was quite well known in classical antiquity[1] and fixed in a received text, but which subsequently was lost to view. It was part of the Epic Cycle, which told the entire history of the Trojan War in epic hexameter verse.

conj Sid Helio SN Kuiper in 2'57 Pisces - The Kuiper Belt

conj Sid Valentine in 2'42 Pisces R

conj Sid Helio NN Einstein in 2'37 Pisces

conj Sid Helio SN Chaldaea in 2'23 Pisces

conj Sid Geo NN Ur in 4'09 Pisces



tr Mercury in 18'21

conj Sid Nereus in 19'12 Scorpio - old ruler of the sea before Poseidon in Greek mythology

conj Sid Helio SN Astronomia in 18'55 Scorpio

conj Sid Apollo in 18'49 Scorpio

conj Sid Aesculapia in 18'15 Scorpio

conj Sid Atlantis in 17'57 Scorpio

conj Sid Helio NN Guinevere in 17'52 Scorpio - wife of Arthur and mistress of Lancelot in Arthurian Legend

conj Sid Astraea in 17'49 Scorpio - Greek Goddess of Justice, Innocense, Purity, and Precision



tr Venus in 21'47 Scorpio

conj Sid Geo SN Ganesa in 21'01 Scorpio

conj Sid Geo SN Galahad in 21'28 Scorpio - Hero of the Holy Grail in Arthurian Legend

conj Sid Helio NN Hokule'a in 21'54 Scorpio - Polynesian for Arcturus

conj Sid Helio SN Babylon in 22'43 Scorpio



tr Mars in 25'54 Aquarius

conj Sid Helio N Child in 25'34 Aquarius



tr Jupiter in 8'17 Sagittarius

conj Sid Geo NN Scientia in 8'16 Sagittarius

conj Sid Musa in 8'32 Sagittarius

conj Sid Geo NN Knight in 8'59 Sagittarius

conj Sid Lacrimosa in 7'59 Sagittarius - sadness



tr Saturn in 5'08 Gemini

conj Sid Helio NN Ganesa in 5'26 Gemini

conj Sid Bohemia in 6'07 Gemini R



tr Uranus in 15'17 Libra

conj Sid Asteria in 15'26 Libra

conj Helio NN Asterope in 16'07 Libra

conj Helio SN Sumerkin in 16'13 Libra



tr Neptune in 1'48 Sagittarius

conj Sid Pia in 1'55 Sagittarius - pious,reverent

conj Sid Geo SN Bohemia in 2'06 Sagittarius

conj Sid Geo NN Interkosmos in 2'42 Sagittarius



tr Asc/Desc in 13'26 Virgo/Pisces

conj Sid Helio N Artemis in 14'00 Virgo/Pisces

conj Sid Helio N Quaoar in 14'09 Virgo/Pisces - transneptunian dwarf planet named after the Los Angeles Native American who created through son and dance

conj/opp Sid Hygeia in 14'29 Virgo

conj Sid Helio Magnanimity in 14'27 Virgo/Pisces

conj Sid Helio N Sootiyo in 14'21 Virgo/Pisces - Hopi for Star-boy

conj/opp Sid Subamara in 13'32 Virgo - somewhat bitter

conj/opp Sid Virginia in 12'45 Virgo

conj/opp Sid Phocaea in 12'44 Virgo - was an ancient Ionian Greek city on the western coast of Anatolia

conj/opp Sid Geo NN Amphitrite in 12'26 Virgo/Pisces - Nereid wife of Poseidon in Greek mythology

conj/opp Sid Io in 13'10 Virgo -mortal lover of Zeus temporarily turned into a cow, was connected with the moon by ancients

opp/conj Sid Rhea in 14'21 Pisces - earth goddess mother of Zeus in mythology

opp Sid Helio N Soomana in 13'36 Pisces/Virgo - Hopi for Star-girl

opp Sid Helio N Maja in 13'36 Pisces/Virgo - a Pleiade, the mother of Hermes

opp/conj Sid Asterope in 12'27 Pisces R - a Pleiade

opp Sid Helio N Kepler in 12'22 Pisces - astronomer who discovered the laws of planetary motion



tr MC/IC in 11'14 Gemini/Sagittarius

conj Sid Helio N Varuna in 11'20 Gemini/Sagittarius - transneptunian dwarf planet named after the Indian God of the Waters,Justice,and Truth

conj/opp Sid Universitas in 10'17 Gemini

opp/conj Sid Helio N Geometria in 11'53 Sagittarius

opp/conj Sid Aten in 11'37 Sagittarius

opp/conj Sid Armenia in 11'13 Sagittarius





tr Lunar Nodes in 10'29 Aquarius/Leo

conj/opp Sid Geo NN Amphitrite in 11'41 Aquarius

conj/opp Sid Geo NN Amasis in 11'11 Aquarius

conj/opp Sid Amalthea in 10'32 Aquarius - nurturer of Zeus in Greek mythology

conj/opp Sid Geo NN Hathor in 9'44 Aquarius

opp/conj Sid Geo NN Sapientia in 11'08 Leo - wisdom, discernment, memory, science, skilled practice

opp/conj Sid Psyche in 11'05 Leo

opp/conj Sid Geo SN Sumeria in 10'23 Leo

opp/conj Sid Hela in 10'14 Leo

opp/conj Sid Parvati in 10'00 Leo

opp/conj Sid Geo SN Lucifer in 9'48 Leo

opp/conj Sid Amicitia in 9'43 Leo - friendship

[lumina]

I love Blashkes book. 

[lumina]

For whatever`s worth, well sidereal placements for me align closely with my secondary chart (carl tobey), mostly cause the difference between sidereal and tropical is very close to the difference between my Sun and ASC (19 degrees), which is the basis for the secondary chart.
Basically there is a bit of Scorpio in my sidereal chart with my Mars-Neptune-Node-ASC there.

Focusing on conjunctions

tropical Moon (17 Aqua) conjunct sidereal Jupiter and Ceres (16-15 Aquarius)

tropical Mars (5 SAg) widely conjunct sidreal Sun (1 Sag) and sidereal Vesta (6 Sag)

Tropical Jupiter (11 PIsces) conjunct sidereal IC (10 Pisces)

tropical Neptune (9 Sag) conjunct sidereal Venus (11 Sag)

tropical Pluto (6 Libra) conjunct sidereal Uranus (6 Libra)

tropical NN (10 Sag) conjunct sidereal Venus (11 Sag)

tropical ASC (7 Sag) conjunct sidereal Vesta (6 Sag)

tropical MC (5 Libra) conjunct sidereal Uranus )6 Libra)

tropical Ceres (9 Pisces) conjunct sidereal IC (10 Pisces)

tropical Sun/Moon-mp (21 Cap) conjunct sidereal Moon (22 Cap)

Well I guess if that chart is about karmic completion I am having quite something to do there. lol


the sidereal Scorpio-stellium: Mars - 10 Scorpio, ASC - 12 Scorpio, Neptune, NN - 15 Scorpio

no tropical major planet there

[glaucus]

I am very amazed by all your tropical-sidereal conjunctions! Very cool!


I have only one in regards to regular chart stuff, but I feel that it's very significant one


Sidereal Moon in 8'49 Aquarius
Tropical North Lunar Node in 10'29 Aquarius

so I have Sidereal Moon conjunct Tropical North Lunar Node within 2 degree orb

both are conjunct fixed stars

In Sidereal Zodiac:
Moon is conjunct
Ancha in 8'31 Aquarius - theta star of Aquarius
Sadalmelik in 9'01 Aquarius - alpha star of Aquarius
Fomalhaut in 9'07 Aquarius - alpha star of Piscis Austrinus

In Tropical Zodiac:
North Lunar Node is conjunct
Albali in 11'20 Aquarius - epsilon star of Aquarius

[Ava]

Mar 9, 2019 12:03:43 GMT lumina said:

Well I guess if that chart is about karmic completion I am having quite something to do there. lol

Wow

We are both sidereal Sags with moon-Jupiter conjunctions between tropical and sidereal. Lots to learn, or feel anyway. 

My conjunctions/oppositions: 

21.36 Taurus Mars Rx, sidereal
20.00 Taurus true SN, tropical

17.17 Virgo Pluto, sidereal
18.12 Pisces moon, tropical (rectified)

12.10 Libra Uranus, sidereal
11.44 Libra Pluto, tropical

18.19 Scorpio Neptune, sidereal
20.00 Scorpio true NN, tropical 

21.23 Sag sun, sidereal, conjunct tropical Vertex around 23 Sag, rectified 

21.37 Pisces Jupiter, sidereal, widely conjunct tropical moon

25 Libra sidereal NN, conjunct tropical IC, and draconic Mars, and opposing tropical Chiron @ 23 Aries

----

So that's interesting:

- Sidereal Mars on my tropical SN, with a sidereal Aries SN
- Sidereal SN @ 25 Aries is conjunct helio Mercury-Jupiter-Chiron, draconic Neptune, and tropical MC.

So apparently that is the heart of where all systems overlap and become obvious: 23-27 Aries.

[Deleted]

glaucus , I began an introductory thread on different chart types for beginners in astrology. See here:

astrogarden.proboards.com/thread/421/descriptions-different-chart-types

I have written a note on Draconic charts and wondered if you would like to write a note for Heliocentric charts. Or add how these compare to tropical charts - anything you think would be at an introductory level and would form the basis for further explorations.

[lumina]

Ava

that is so cool, that we both have sidreal Jupiter conjunct tropical Moon - I wonder what that means.

[lumina]

glaucus

yes I was suprrised to find so many links between my sidereal and tropical (more than between Draco-tropical, where I mostly have Draco Moon on my SN and DESC, at least with a close orb)


and sidereal Moon to NN sounds very interesting to me, how do you interprete that?

[lumina]

Also did anyone else find interesting links in synastry, between sidereal and tropical?

[glaucus]

I don't know, but it seems very karmic though.

Tameem had said:
Think of Sidereal as a Snapshot of Karmic Endings from the Immediate Past Lifeline.
So where the Sidereal Objects intersect the tropical is where you will actually detect karmic endings in the present lifeline.

Like, if someone's Tropical Sun conjuncts your Sidereal Sun, you will be fully aware of an ending of karmic bonds with this person. You may even the lessons of how to complete the Tropical Sun mastery from this person. Look at your own chart for more. See if any Tropical object conjuncts a Sidereal Object. This is where you have completed the karma. And vice versa, if any Sidereal object conjuncts a Tropical Object, this is where you can grow by creating positive karma.


any insights that you can give me about this?

[lumina]

Thanks. I am not quite sure about the Karma-thing however. At least in the way it is often used. Just like the concept of soulmates and twinflames. There have been so many words spoken and written about it, that it kind of lost its meaning to me.

Not saying it is wrong, just that I do not relate to it, or am able to understand what it means in real life terms. Well after all Karma does not mean anything else but "action". Maybe what I can most relate to is that "action have consequences", and maybe, IF sidereal has to do with Karma, where it interlocks with the tropical, we can see the consequences of actions (sidereal) into our physical daily lives (tropical).

But actually why is the sidereal related to the concept of Karma? Where does that come from? I mean I am aware Blashke wrote about this, and I know that Vedic astrologers use sidereal zodiac AND that the concept of Karma is very predominant in their astrology. But is that really reason enough for associating the sidereal zodiac with Karma?

Well I guess I cannot really give an insight about that, because of my questions that I still have about the meaning of the sidereal zodiac.

[lumina]

Mar 9, 2019 23:04:30 GMT glaucus said:

 And vice versa, if any Sidereal object conjuncts a Tropical Object, this is where you can grow by creating positive karma.

So in my case that would mean that for example

sidereal Jupiter conjunct tropical Moon
sidereal Venus conjunct tropical Neptune and NN
sidereal IC conjunct tropical Jupiter and Ceres
sidereal Uranus conjunct tropical Pluto and MC

would be indicative of creating positive Karma for my Moon, Neptune, Nodes, Jupiter, Ceres, Pluto and MC. 

But what does that really mean? How would or could that manifest in the Here and Now? 

[glaucus]

shrugs
I have moved away from interpreting the 12 sign zodiacs myself
I am focusing on the actual constellations and fixed stars, but the constellational boundaries are a bit arbitrary
I have already pointed out problems with it
bottom line: I am not going to be calling Alpha Scorpions "Ophiuchians", Alpha Pisceans "Arians",amd Alpha Aquarians "Capricornians"
The IAU zodiac is not even based on Ecliptic Longitude. It's based on Right Ascension and Declination.

I don't agree with Vivian Robson's zodiac boundaries nor Diana Rosenberg's zodiac boundaries
I already posted  Robson's. I will post Rosenberg's soon.

I have been using 12 sign zodiac as just a frame of reference to measure aspects.
I really don't put any emphasis on zodiac signs and houses.

I have been going the route of the astrologer of this site, Jamie Partridge
except I view the sky as multidimensional with the use of Right Ascension, Declination, and Parans and not just Ecliptic Longitude
astrologyking.com/

I thought about working with the 12 Sign Sidereal Zodiac that the Babylonians used, but I just cannot see myself as Sun in Libra with my Sun being in the Virgo constellation and being near Lambda Virgo star, Khambalia, and I have them in parallel 
If I allow an orb of 1 1/2 degree for a conjunction, they would be both conjunct in Ecliptic Longitude,  and they also would be conjunct in 3D (taking also latitude into account). My Sun is pretty much at the left foot of the Virgin.


Both my Moon and North Lunar Node are in the Aquarius constellation. 
My Moon is in an ecliptic conjunction and 3D conjunction within 1 degree as well as in a conjunction paran within half a degree,  and so my Moon is pretty much at the hip (belt in modern atlases) of the Water-pourer. 

[glaucus]

I edited my last post. I corrected some mistakes.
I also included Jamie Partridge's site link


Questioning stuff in Astrology is great.
I definitely question a lot of stuff in Astrology, and that has made me to make changes.
I have questioned Robert Hand as a Tropical Astrologer using Precession-correction with transits which shows that he doesn't trust timing of the Tropical Zodiac.
I also think mixing Tropical Zodiac with fixed stars can be very confusing and contradicting, especially when you got luminary,personal planet is conjunct brightest or alpha,beta star of a zodiac constellation like Sun conjunct alpha Scorpio star Antares in Tropical Sagittarius.

[Ava]

lumina,

My tropical moon conjunct sidereal Jupiter, your sidereal Jupiter conjunct your tropical moon, so it's more like mirroring. Not really sure how it works?

My sidereal moon @ 23 Aqua widely conjunct your tropical moon.

---

I'm open to the idea that sidereal-to-tropical synastry is meaningful, I just can't think of anyone whose tropical luminaries are conjunct my sidereal, or vice versa.

Re: Karma

It's confusing to me because it goes beyond the reaches of my memory, and as a Cap sun, I find those limitations frustrating. My sun squares the asteroid Karma in my chart so perhaps that matches my apparent inability to access those past lives and consciously know what I'm doing here, and with whom, and why. Maybe there IS a bank of knowledge inside, I just don't have the combination to unlock the vault. (Yet.)

What I can work with is Saturn (karmic planet) and with 12H Saturn, my dreams have sometimes felt more real to me than real life. And Saturn has bound me up in synastry, so the more Saturn we have together, it seems the more likely I am to dream of the person in a kind of heavy way, and come out with more impressions. Like my Elvis dreams My Saturn is conjunct his south node.

Or sometimes even daydreams can suddenly turn a bit hyper-real feeling, for an instant or two. There have been moments where it seems the veils are thin and I'm seeing, "Oh I knew you before, this is very ancient...." and the context of our interaction expands in an imaginative or magical way (not sure which), so that what we are doing here that feels so mundane is now elevated by connection to something from long ago, where life was more natural and therefore more cohesive.

But again, I can't pretend to know more than I do. I've known one person who spoke of her past life so convincingly, and with astrological documentation...I have no doubt that story was real. But she put in the work (meditation, study, sacrifice) to get to that point, and I haven't. So this is my present karma: wanting to know something, but not knowing.

[lumina]

Ava

I understand that, well I do recall past lives, tidbits of them, though I am open to the possibility it could be just my subconsciousness wrapping up certain feelings/ insights whatever into stories or images that I can relate to.

I guess I am just a bit wary of people going on about Karma, cause usually it is in a dismissive way like: "Oh this is just a karmic relationship" as if that was something to spit on! Every relationship has their reason and meaning I am sure of that.

Glaucus didn`t do that of course, but I have just read that so often times that I just cannot hear it anymore. Karma-Shmarma.

Though P was laughing when, he thought he had lost the episode, and I mentioned that it must be Karma. LOL



my Karma is actually trine my MOon exactly, but it sort of clashes with my SAturn-Juno-trine, as Karma semisextiles my Saturn and squares my Juno.


Well if it is karmic, then so P`s and my synastry certainly is, there are quite some interlinks there, starting with his tropical Mars-Jupiter being right on my sidereal MC and my tropical Jupiter-Ceres on my sidereal IC - it seems like that opposition is emphasized once more. lol as if our Mars-Jupiter// Jupiter-Ceres needed any more emphasis.

[Ava]

Mar 10, 2019 14:35:49 GMT lumina said:

I guess I am just a bit wary of people going on about Karma, cause usually it is in a dismissive way like: "Oh this is just a karmic relationship" as if that was something to spit on! Every relationship has their reason and meaning I am sure of that.

To me, a "karmic relationship" means...

- it felt inevitable, fated, the beginning of it...coincidental encounters, love at first sight, forced into the same place, etc
- it magnetized them, made them feel like a puzzle piece falling into place...not exactly voluntary but "considering who I am, who you are, what this is, we have a lot to work out here"
- they had trouble leaving even after they recognized it wasn't what they wanted as individuals

And it's deemed karmic after those three criteria have been met. 

For me, karmic is synonymous with difficult with a tinge of "I don't really even like that person, I just deserved that because of something bad I did at some point in history."

I say that because that's how I observe the word being used.

[Ava]

In keeping with that...

I was in a "karmic relationship" with this person:



- His sidereal Mars-Jupiter opposition squares my tropical nodes exactly
- His sidereal Saturn inconjunct my tropical nodes exactly
- His sidereal NN conjunct my NN, less than 3°
- His sidereal sun conjunct my Saturn, less than 2°

Our composite Venus-Pluto conjunction sits on my helio chart's Venus-Pluto conjunction

For what it's worth

[lumina]

Ava

thank you for your input.

Yes, I`ve read that too, about karmic relationships, but actually the same thing about the fatedness, compulsion, inevitable draw etc. I have read in relation to soulmates and twinflames as well. At some point it just all seems arbitrary, depending which source you read.

I definitely think that karmic relationship *can* be as you refer to others describing them, with that negative tinge.

BUT if we trace the word karma back, its meaning is actual neutral, it is not inherently negative, to me that means that while that is true, and karma might mean that we "get what we deserve", this could be with that bitter aftertaste OR it could actually be a good thing, a good relationship etc.

What it boils down to me is pretty much that two people "work" together, that there is something they do together (which could actually also be bringing children into that world for example).


For example my parents fit the "karma-definition", except that they really like/ love each other and are doing good things together (also for the benefit of others).

in terms of their sidreal-tropical synastry

my Dad`s sidereal Mars and SN conjunct my Mom`s tropical Venus (3 degrees) and her Mars (1 degree) on his own tropical ASC (3 degrees)
his sid Moon conjunct her tr Jupiter (1 degree) (hey maybe that is where I inherited my individual sid Jupiter on n Moon from?)
his sid Moon oppospite her tr Saturn (1 degree), which is conjunct his own tr Mars-SN, of course that means his own sid Moon is on his tr NN
his sid ASC-Saturn conjunct her tr Pluto (3 degrees) - also fell onto their marriage charts ASC.
his sid Sun conjunct her tr DESC exact


and from her perspective

her sid Saturn conjunct his tr ASC-Saturn (3 degrees)
her sid ASC conjunct his tr MC (3 degrees) - on my asteroid Karma btw. lol
her sid MC and NN conjunct his tr Venus on 14 Aquarius exact
her sid MC and NN conjunct his tr Jupiter by 2 degrees
her sid Sun conjunct his tr Mars and SN on 9 Libra exact (on my natal Pluto)
her sid Mercury conjunct his tr Neptune by 1 degree
her sid Mars conjunct his tr Pluto by 2 degrees (on their composite Sun)


Well there were strange synchronicities at play when they met and there was this pull to each other that was very strong obviously, so in so far the description of karmic relationships fits. But where it is different is in that they do like each other for real and that they sort of combine forces. I don´t know how to put it differently, but together they have an enormous power, not in a physical sense, but in doing good things, social-wise mostly, and they are basically inseparable. So I just cannot subscribe to the "karmic relationships always break up and mostly in a nasty way" and also not to the "karmic partners do not really love/ like each other".

I mean just look at the synastry above, if the sidereal is about karma, then this must be a very karmic lineup.

[lumina]

Looking at another relationship, which started like a whirlwind and with a lot of compulsive draw to each other, with a lot of romantic projections that were not based on any kind of reality at all, and even after realizing they were not a match at all, they tried to keep it together, esp. the woman to the point of where it became a mentally and emotionally abusive relationship, with a lot of blaming and taking undeserved blame. Well this was a relationship that seemed to be a textbook case of what karmic relationships are often described on astrology sites I guess.

So let me look up the synastry there


her sid Sun conjunct his Saturn (2 degrees)
her sid Venus-Mars-Pluto conjunct his Mercury (4 degrees)
her sid Uranus conjunct his Pluto (2 degrees - but that is a generational thing)
her sid NN conjunct his Pluto (3 degrees)
her sid DESC conjunct his Neptune (3 degrees)

his sid Moon conjunct her Neptune exact
his sid Mars conjunct her Jupiter (1 degree)
his sid Uranus conjunct her Venus and Mars (2 degrees)
his sid Pluto conjunct her Sun exact (he actually was exerting some kind of hypnotic influence on her for a time)
his sid NN conjunct her Sun (3 degrees)
his sid ASC conjunct her Jupiter (3 degrees - and she was very tolerant towards him, to a degree, that not even I and not even her herself could understand)