4th harmonic synastry and midpoints

[Ava]

lumina and anyone else who might be interested...

Let me see if I can make this intelligible. I'm sure it's been discussed before. 

With conjunctions, squares, and oppositions (4th harmonic), I suppose it matters more in synastry when a person has

planet = midpoint

...in their natal. 

So for instance, Venus = Saturn/Pluto will function much differently than Venus = moon/Jupiter, and if your planet is in 4th harmonic aspect to their Venus, it will also be picking up that background influence of midpoints. Right?

And if we have a synastry opposition like sun opposing sun, but each of us has sun = midpoint, then all the planets forming the midpoints will be involved. Like backup singers behind the stars of the show.

It seems like it could get overwhelming, except if I'm using tight orbs, there are usually only a few (if any) exact midpoint pictures in each person's chart. There wouldn't always be something like....

Person A's planet, which = 5 midpoints, opposing Person B's planet, which = 3 midpoints. That's too much stuff to sort out. 

But within manageable parameters I think it's kind of interesting to consider, especially when you have pairings like Jupiter = Mars/Saturn or moon = Mars/Pluto, these gentle or benefit planets may introduce a heavy or contentious energy that's unexpected but nevertheless pretty obvious and ought to be accounted for. If it's not too depressing. 

Thoughts? 

[lumina]

Ava

yes, exactly.

[lumina]

Ema Kurent mentions that, too, in terms of eclipses hitting a natal planet and how to predict the outcome.

"A direct (and strong or clearly expressed) midpoint tells us more about how a planet works in the chart than a weak aspectual relationship. (For example, if natal Jupiter is on the midpoint of Saturn and Neptune, it suggests a degenerative action of some kind, while natal Jupiter on the midpoint of Sun and Venus would suggest a marriage, for example. Imagine what a huge difference in expression such an eclipsed Jupiter would have!)"

astrologyrestored.com/2015/07/25/times-of-change-and-how-to-predict-them-by-ema-kurent/

[lumina]

BTW Lancelot has his Mars conjunct Sun/Venus-mp, I think a lot of his charm and appeal to women in general might be described here. it is also interesting as his Mars is in Aries.

[lumina]

Extending this, it would also be interesting to check the 4th harmonic charts, first of all of course the 4th harmonic aspects stand out there as stellia, but you could also trace the tapestry of that chart, and well, 4th harmonic aspects are the basis of "manifestation".

Cochrane relates them to "desire and motivation to do something", it`s where the kick in your butt that gets you going shows up astrology. 

[lumina]

Ava

my parents have for example 

my Mom`s Venus conjunct my Dad`s Saturn-ASC

and his Mars conjunct her Saturn exact; her Mars conjuncts his Saturn a bit more widely



his Saturn opposes Sun/Moon (and conjunct Neptune/Pluto with 1°30)
hsi ASC more tightly conjucnts Neptune/Pluto
his DESC conjuncts Sun/Moon

her Venus conjuncts Moon/IC


- what beautiful alignment with Moon-midpoints!




her Saturn conjuncts Sun/Mars and Moon/Neptune tightly
his Mars oposite Sun/MC and Moon/DESC and Mercury/Uranus

[lumina]

Sept 22, 2018 0:56:29 GMT Ava said:

Sept 20, 2018 8:29:19 GMT lumina said:

Yes, basically. Well there are several astrologers, who actually only really use the 4th harmonic aspects. I wouldn`t go so far myself. I do appreciate a nice trine here and there. lol 

Cosmobiology (Ebertin) is one of those who are working extensively with the 4th harmonic aspects (actually also including the 8th harmonic aspects), Ebertin reasons rightfully in my experience, that 4th harmonic aspects are related to "active manifestation of events" while trines and sextiles are more about "passive conditions". 
If everything is harmonious, there is no need to change, Events are always changes.
BTW Ebertin was also one of the first ones, considering not onyl the planets in 4th harmonic aspects but the midpoints tied to those. He used very tight orbs, mainly cause he was interested mostly in prediction and events happening to people, and those just naturally happen with tight orbs, when two things are being triggered at the same time. 
His interpretations are a bit gloomy and bleak, but well he was living in germany during 2nd world war and after it, I guess this coloured his perception. (and it is startling how right his interpretations usually are, even though most of the time I do not want to know THAT clearly. lol)

But anyway, 4th harmonic aspects are dynamic and bring friction (and sparks) and without sparks no fire, without friction no sex actually. Just think of it, the sex-act itself is not an expression of a harmonious side by side-flow, in a nutshell it is about intrusion (usually a welcome one of course. lol). 


I personally think we need both the friction of the 4th harmonic aspect and the harmonious flow of the trines and sextiles, there is just a degree when it is getting too much with the friction/ dynamic aspects, just as a chart with only trines and sextiles i among the most boring thing imagineable, though people might feel rather comfortable with it, there is just no development there, just a constant going with the flow and being a little complacent. 
But a mix would be nice!


With the 4th harmonic aspects in my opinion it depends a lot about the planets involved. wouldn`t relaly want a Saturn-Moon-Neptune-T-square with anyone (even that can be dealt with I suppose, but it is not high on my christmas list to be honest. ). The inner tension can get too much with some aspects, and SAturn-Pluto-Mars is also one that I would be careful around. 

On the other hand some 4th harmonic aspects can be very motivating (probably even a SAturn-Pluto-mars could be, but I would still bea bit cautious around it. Saturn-Pluto is just difficult to navigate in very tight 4th harmonic aspects. It has its value of course, but that does not make it any easier on a daily level. Tight aspects mostly, I think wider orbed aspects with that are more easy to handle.)

But so I do basically like the T-square between P and me involving both Jupiters, even though it has its challenges, like my Neptune being involved for example. Curiously enough i was recommended the video of mars square Neptune yesterday, and we have that square. lol His Mars is squaring my Neptune with a bit over 1 degree.


The title made me laugh though. lol

[lumina]

BTW are you talking about the 4th harmonic chart, or 4th harmonic aspects in a basic natal chart?

Very intense there the Mars-Pluto with the Sunm-Moon. Definitely transformative. Well conjunctions get a wide orb in the harmonic charts, but squares do not that much (in a synastry they get about 2 degrees), so some might be pulled in by being in proximity to other aspects, but might not be just as much in the face, and the exact ones might be building the basic blocks with the others docking onto that.

[lumina]

Ava

yes, definitely!

Also it is very interesting he is having a progressed Venus-Neptune, right?
and natally his Venus/Neptune-mp is associated with Saturn, and there you are, Capricorn Sun!


The lunar eclipse is interesting as it aims at that particular axis; however probably I would rather risk a glance onto a solar eclipse close to when you actually started reconnecting, to see what NEW seed was being laid. (the lunar eclipse of course could be a good thing to illuminating something and a culmination, too; but there is more to that, and as far as I can see it you weren`t manifesting the reconnection in january, but in march and august, right?)

I get the feeling that the july solar eclipse and in particular the august solar eclipse will shed light onto how this proceeds in the future (even though the direction might not be visble completely yet).

The august solar eclipse is in particular so interesting, as you did meet around that, too, right?


Well for me personally I should probably have a look at those as well, I mean the timing is obvious.

P and me met for the fanmeeting/gathering/auction 5 days before the july eclipse took place, the actually eclipse fell into the week with the auction for his private concert. lol

And then the month after that we coincidentally bumped into each other one day before the august solar eclipse, less than 24 hours before I think.


And I think the timing was similiar for H and you?

[Ava]

Sept 22, 2018 12:51:05 GMT lumina said:

BTW are you talking about the 4th harmonic chart, or 4th harmonic aspects in a basic natal chart?

Very intense there the Mars-Pluto with the Sunm-Moon. Definitely transformative. Well conjunctions get a wide orb in the harmonic charts, but squares do not that much (in a synastry they get about 2 degrees), so some might be pulled in by being in proximity to other aspects, but might not be just as much in the face, and the exact ones might be building the basic blocks with the others docking onto that.

The OP is about 4th harmonic aspects to midpoints, but you said something about checking the 4th harmonic chart, so I checked those natals & synastry (4th to 4th).

Thanks for clarifying the orbs with squares.  👍
 

[12YearsABlob]

Sept 22, 2018 23:21:08 GMT Ava said:

For some reason I think I watched that before...oh yeah, my college BF's Virgo Mars squares my Neptune

Yeah, I posted it on the other forum when you, lumina and I were discussing Mars-Neptune aspects..

[lumina]

Ava

your 4th harmonic chart comparision looks pretty intense then, very much inclined to bring change into each other`s lives, also changing way of thinking, but with the Sun-Moon, it is all centred about this deep inner connection, that strives for finding a way to manifest somehow.


One of the most noteable connections in our 4th harmonic is this.

P`s Jupiter (10 Cap) conjunct Mars (14 Cap)
opposing
Venus (13 Cancer)

his Mercury-Amor on 7 Cap, is also part of it, albeit a little more widely.


Especially his Mars-Venus is having
sextiles/trines
to Sun-Saturn on 16-17 Pisces, though it might be a little widish (but in natal charts we hae a larger orb than in synastry, and a trine would have an orb of around 3-4 degrees)



I have

Ceres 8 Cap
Neptune 9 Cap
NN 10 Cap
Jupiter 14 Cap

and

Mercury 10 Pisces
Sun 13 Pisces

Well while those are generally linking to each other, I think the more prominent ones are these

his Jupiter on my Ceres-Neptune-NN
his Mars on my Jupiter exact
his Venus opposing my Jupiter
his Venus trine my Sun exact



Personally I have a few Grand trines in my own 4th harmonic chart


Juno 7 Aqua (oppospite Uranus 5 Leo)
Saturn 7 Gemini (opposite Amor 8 SAg and his NN-Priapus on 5 and 3 Sag)
Moon 8 Libra (opposite Vesta 5 Aries)



Pluto 6 Taurus (opposite Psyche on 6 Scorpio and mean Lilith on 7 Scorpio, opposint P`s Uranus-Pallas-Psyche on 3, 7 and 10 Scorpio))
Pallas 6 Virgo (conjunct P`s Chiron on 8 Virgo)
Ceres 8 Cap (conjunct P`s MErcury-Amor on 7 and 6 Cap)


And Venus on 24 Aries is widely trine Mars on 20 Sag (his Neptune on almost 22 Aqua, is on the midpoints, well it is part of the natal too, his Neptune falls exact onto my Venus/mars-mp) and in 4th harmonic chart his Ceres on 28 Aries is conjunct my Venus and his Venus on 13 Cancer widely opposes my Ceres on 8 Cap.


But really, I guess what gets me most about this is his stellium of (Mercury)-Mars-Jupiter, opposing Venus, and how my Jupiter-Neptune-Ceres-NN are falling right there. Of course it means that natally there are conjunctions, oppositions and squares to his Mercury-Mars-Jupiter and semisquares/sesisquares to his Venus.

[lumina]

Sept 22, 2018 23:21:08 GMT Ava said:

Yes...the eclipse season was way more dramatic than either you or I would have predicted beforehand.

Yes, definitely. And yet, maybe we should have been able to.


I mean the eclipse on 20 Cancer is on my far Sun/Moon-mp, the eclipse on 18 Leo is on yours. LOL 

For me also the 18 Leo-new moon making a fullmoon with my Moon, the 20 Cancer eclipse opposing your Sun, also making a fullmoon, just for me Moon is emphasized, for you the Sun I guess. 

[lumina]

Ava

yes, a lot of action. Not sure what was implemented to be honest, maybe it will subside now and fizzle out. Or not. Talking about me and P, not you and H btw.

But yes, the eclipse next year I don`t know what it will bring. Well he will be away on a cruise to the Southern Seas at that time it hit I think.

Or possibly the eclipse will happen before that. It will be on my pr ASC, opposing my Saturn and conjunct our composite Venus.
And 3 weeks after that our progressed fullmoon in composite will perfect (8 Aquarius-Leo) and applying to a square with pr composite Mars, well our natal composite has Moon square Mars as well, so this will be an emphasis/ repetition, possibly not all that pleasant, but could be important (hmm of course it means that at some point Mars will be on Sun/Moon-mp in the progressed composite)



The lunar eclipse after that taking place 4 days before our progressed composite fullmoon will be EXACT on our natal composite DESC. This scares me to be honest. A big ending?


Well fullmoons can be about illuminations of course, but let`s not forget the possibility of endings here. though I am not sure what would be ending, I mean we do not even have a relationship that COULD end.



Shortly after our progressed composite Full Moon becoming exact (just 10 days later), there will be a New Moon conjunct my own Moon by 1,5 degrees (I once started to really took notice of him just after a solar eclipse on my Moon.)


Two weeks after that there will be a fullmoon on 00 Virgo, exact on his own NN, and that is replicating the circumstance of that concert when we started to pay attention to each other, so long ago, exactly, as there was a lunar eclipse on his NN (and his prenatal eclipse btw) just following that concert (which was pushing me into the choice that would have us actually meet and talk some months later)



in May 2019 the New Moon will be on our composite IC (and actually even more exact on composite Eros even. lol)
the New Moon in june will be on our composite Jupiter.


The following Fullmoon on 17th june will be just 3 minutes of my natal Sun, of course this will also be in orb for his natal New Moon and our composite Sun.



I am a bit scared of the total solar eclipse on 10 Cancer though. lol in july


the following lunar eclipse on 24 Cap will be conjunct our composite Moon by about 2 degrees and even more closely to his natal Venus; I also wonder if the total solar eclipse is close enough to oppose my Venus on 6 Cap to count. But 4 degrees is pretty wide of course. But then again it is a total eclipse. Well maybe him and his wife will just have another baby (their Mars-NN is on 10 CAncer, but then there is also his Atropos, and our DRaco composite ASC

Well that total eclipse will be conjunct our composite asteroid Child by 3 degrees, and it will trine pr composite Mars partile, and pr composite Venus with 1-2 degrees. basically on the Venus/Mars-mp, and there is a lot else going on around that time, including Tr Pluto having reached the degree of composite Moon, Tr SN and Tr Saturn being on our composite Venus; I wouldn`t even dare to prognosticate anything, but seems like a big summer. Something definitely will transform big time (I am always quick prognosticating endings, but then again we have been through Tr Pluto on our composite Venus - and while it was an ending,I definitely did not expect this kind of end, it actually basically pushed us closer together than ever before. lol Now Moon can be very different of course, who knows? It will be possibl more harsh for him as well as he is probably already experiencing Tr Pluto on his Venus then, and still in the Tr PLuto square n Pluto for him. Well when the Tr Plutow as hitting our composite Vensu and squaring composite Pluto, it was also opposing my natal Saturn)



Then in july the New Moon on 8 Leo, will of course oppose composite Sun (replicating the fullmoon of january our pr composite had, maybe it will be only then that the impact will get really visible)

and on and on. But yes I agree with you, big drama, at least emotionally i guess. I haven`t even dared yet to have a closer look there, not sure I want to know. lol